is the God of Jesus speaking through a Buddhist monk?
October 13th, 2008
A news report about a Buddhist monk caught my attention and I wanted to blog about it. In the space of seven days in the Straits Times, we can now weave a tale of three holy men. They are all “set apart”. They are all men of faith. Two are megachurch pastors and one a monk. But how they live out their faith is different. One owns a few fashion shops but serves the church without a salary and is generous in his giving. There are other pastors like that too who are bi-vocational and the other job is not taxi driver or durian seller but a thriving profitable business, and they are laying their lives for the church and the Lord. Another has a high salary which could have been higher but refuses to accept a system which would have seen him earning even more. He too is generous in his giving. And today Monte Lee Rice a perceptive seer wrote a comment from which I have extracted what he said about the report I wanted to blog on:
And finally brothers and sisters, I am compelled to draw attention to the article in today’s paper (The Sunday Times, 12 October 2008) titled, “I, who have nothing.” This is a short write-up about the British born and Buddhist month Ajahn Brahm, whose picture most of us have at some point seen occasionally in the paper or around town. I am not a Buddhist; I am a Christian. But boy, what shame this man brings upon us! He “travels up to 10 times or more a year” all over the world, “people turn up by the thousands to listen to him,” and yet he “does not carry a single penny, has no mobile phone or MP3 player,” and “sleeps on the floor and has one meal a day from his alms bow.” The article mentions that Ajahn Brahm “doesn’t believe religious leaders should be paid a lot of money either.” I think we better listen to this: “How much money did Jesus have? He had nothing. . . . We’re at an economic downturn here and many people are afraid of what might happen if they lose their savings and house, and I can come along and say I’ve never had a house and savings and I can be happen and peaceful If I can do that with nothing, you don’t need to be afraid.” Well, let’s do give the Lord the last word here: “if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? . . . . But strive first for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.”
Monte Lee Rice
Perichorus
Jesus himself, who was not silent on wealth and possessions, had said: “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also (Matt 6:19-21). Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys(Luke 12:33). Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”(Luke 12:15).
We know that Jesus died a shameful death, and in the world’s eyes, he died in failure and poverty. We also know that all the twelve apostles, and Paul too died with little possessions to boast of. They were the closest to Jesus, and their interpretation of Jesus words can be seen in the way they lived. I suppose they were like Nazirites: you could call them incarnated prophecies for the larger body, extreme examples that will continually arrest our attention, and make us think about how we are living out our faith.
None of us are to legislate how everyone else is to apply these words and teachings of Jesus, and how we should exactly follow the examples of these apostles who were unlikely to misinterpret Jesus’ teachings. How each one of us specifically responds to God is according to the grace we have experienced in our lives, and our stewardship to Him.
Its not that the church doesn’t have its own examples in this respect: John Wesley who despite more money coming into his hands, insisted on keeping his standard of living unchanged, but increased his giving. Or George Muller who ran an orphanage by faith in prayer and without publicity of needs but just by prayer. He saw thousands of pounds pass through his hands but none got stuck in his palms. Or a St Francis of Assisi. Or a Mother Theresa. Or C.T. Studd who gave up his substantial inheritance and fame as a sportsman and became a missionary to Africa.
As Christians, we are all holy, “set apart” men and women, whether pastor or accountant or clerk, we are all equally accountable to God as to how we live in His presence. How we manage and use the gifts and opportunities He gives us is something we are personally accountable to Him for, and we ought not to judge other Christians over how much they earn, or the way they spend their money or the possessions they keep. Or to make what standards of living we are convinced of, a law that everyone else must comply with. However we can ask ourselves as stewards, “What is God saying to me about me about my desire to be rich; about the possessions I now own and my attitude towards them; about my personal pursuit of earthly security in an enlarged barn to store more grain, rather than in an enlarged vision of a loving God to distribute more grain?”
Now if God can speak through nature’s wonders, an animal and even Caiaphas or king Cyrus, is this Buddhist monk, his mouthpiece of the moment to Singaporean Christians and churches in this furious economic tsunami, a dark parable that Christians need to personally reflect on and ask, “Lord, is there something I need to learn here for myself?”
Entry Filed under: Church, Megachurches, Society
Blogpastor,
Radical and as revolutionary as our Lord and Savior.
Your message of personal accountability will not resonate with a economic society whose value and accumulation of “gold” is a measure of productivity and success.
We need Prophets in the mold of John the Baptist to shake up from our anesthetized comatose state.
We need sheep that talk and walk as sheep - not the wolves that talk sheep who seem to have lulled many into another comfortable stupor. Parting with money to God’s edifice builders seem to be the balm for a fevered brow and a troubled conscience. Not unlike trusting your investment counsular in the present financial credit crisis.
Start seeking the truth for yourself that will be where you will find Jesus. All of us are empowered but we are too lazy to go to source and prefer another’s opinion. Caveat emptor.
Another thought - FAITH is the ability to believe in the absence of proof. The question is not about being men and women of faith but what faith?
Often our faith is based on popular, irrational dogma and rituals. Large mass acceptance is mistaken for “TRUTH.” Poverty or Prosperity are not the indicators of holiness or lack thereof.
Perplexed often that since Jesus did not need money, this is a virtue we should emulate?.
We were told be in the world but not be of it, hence not being the Son of God and having none of his supernatural powers of our Father, we are just creatures that have a shot at redemption through the sacrifice of Jesus when we have faith and walk the talk.
How insignificant or earth shaking is the impact of each of our talk or walk is dependent on HIS WILL. There are many paths to Heaven, depending on your gifts, talk and walk. They are all precious to Him, our material impact if insignificant.
To those that much have been give, much is expected - includes “mega pastors” and all other ‘powerful leaders.” Just remember where our power came from. in the first place.
What he gives, he can take - so we have nothing to call our own. we are mere stewards. Multiply the denari you have been given, for we all have to be accountable.
Shalom and an exciting walk in His light. Exciting and vibrant!
Hi Pastor,
You brought up a good article and your rightly pointed out about the true treasure which is in Heaven. That’s the treasure that we should seek in place of material treasures that some are preaching.
When we look around us, we see that most of the people around us are comparing children’s results, who spend more time at work, business travel, buying shares and properties, whose house is bigger and whose car is faster…..
People’s perception of life and living has taken a new twist as compared to people of the early churches.
God’s providence is long forgotten…… when was the last time we feel grateful (to God) that we have a roof over our head, regular meals on the table and a peaceful society to live in?
Now, some dubious preacher is preaching that “I am rich and that’s a shinning testimony that God is with me” and you can be rich too – if you come to me. I have serious doubts that God is with them.
Jesus chose to be poor and so do all His apostles. I do not think that He wants us to be poor. Rather, He is teaching us to live a simple life and not be tempted by greed of materials wealth that will not last. And all of them led by example and live a simple life. St Palu said in Rm2:21 “so then, in teaching others, do you teach yourself as well? “
I do not mean that priest and pastors should live like pauper. But rather a simple life like most of us. Semi-D, condos and conti cars seems out of place especially when they live on money that comes from goodwill of church goers.
These funds should be channel into helping the poor and needy of the society. Isn’t this the way to reach out to them and to show them that God loves and care for them? Isn’t this the best way to live our faith and walk the talk?
Personally, I think that’s doing God’s work , that’s evangelizing, that’s spreading God’s love (good news) and that’s the way to proved that God is here.
So, let’s hope that this Buddhist monk do make some of these high profile so called “servant of God” reflect upon themselves.
Yes, this monk is proving that he too can live and survive a simple life just like Jesus and His apostles. So why can’t our mega pastor do the same?
When Jesus was tempted by Satan in MT4, what did he do? Did he give in to Satan so that all He can have “all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour”? Remember, Jesus was at that time very tired and hungry at that time if temptation.
Some of us now may be facing a serious situation with the financial crisis, let’s hope that we too, have the same courage of Jesus and never give in to temptations. Rather, we should pray and seek God’s grace.
I quote what the pope said in a impromptu remark at the opening session of the world Synod of Bishops on the Bible:
“ He (the pope) said the morning’s Scripture readings had brought to mind Christ’s parable of the two houses, one built on sand and one built on rock.
“On sand is built only things we can see and touch: success, career, money. Apparently they are real, but one day they pass,” he said. He said the banking crisis demonstrated how quickly they can disappear.
“Whoever builds his life on these things — on material things, on success, on appearances — is building on sand,” he said.
The true realist is someone who builds his life on the things that remain, recognizing God’s place in his own life, he said.”
You can read the entire article (if you have interest) at
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0805052.htm.
So let us look beyond the material riches of this world and start seeking the true meaning of being a Christian and live our life to the fullest – the Christian way. A life that is of faith, hope and love. Not money, money and more money…..
One guest preacher was preaching a sermon to encourage people to give in faith to his ministry. After teaching from the bible verse about one reaping what one sows, the guest preacher gave his personal testimony. He told the congregation about how when he was so financially broke during the financial crisis in the 970s that he was without a home and left only with about $20 in his pocket. He walked into a church service, and deep in his heart he prayed to God for help. When the offering bag was passed around, he put in all the money he had. On his way out, someone befriend him, learned of his problems and offered him shelter and also gave him a job. That became the beginning of a series of good fortune that within one year, he became financially stable and in another 3 years, he actually became rich! After sharing his testimony, he urged the congregation to give to his ministry so that God’s unlimited blessing of wealth can be released onto them. He said because he has given his last $20, God has turned him into a multi-millionaire. Then at that point, a soft voice of an old woman could be heard among the congregation: “I dare you do it again now!”
Do you think it is much more difficult for this guy to give away all his wealth now (millions of dollars in nett assets) than when he was without a home and was down to his last $20?
—
Ajahn Brahm is quite an outstanding monk (there are many lousy Buddhist monks just as there are many lousy pastors). I first heard his talk and spoke to him in the year 2000 (I was probably the only Christian attending those Buddhist talks). He is very knowledgeable, intelligent, graceful and humble. He is also a very good public speaker, usually injecting his well-thought out teachings with lots of humour. His lifestyle gives solid backing to his words (it is becoming more and more difficult to find Christian leaders who can not only speak well but also have a lifestyle that gives credibility to their leadership).
One important key for credibility is concrete sacrifice demonstrated by leaders. If they can show personal concrete sacrifice (and one of the most concrete sacrifices lies in sacrificing wealth and assets), then their claim about not attached to wealth would be more credible. Some like to say “it is not money that is the root of evil but the love of money that is the root of evil”. True statement, but it would be better for a Christian leader to demonstrate in concrete way that he/she is not attached to his wealth. [just as I would expect a Buddhist leader who advocates non-attachment to demonstrate in a very concrete way that he practises what he preach].
—
I am not condemning the rich. After all, possessing lots of wealth and assets are morally neutral; I am talking about leaders who can demonstrate in a very concrete way that their real focus is on the promotion of the Kingdom of God - just like how people like John Wesley and Mother Theresa did.
Perhaps if the very rich Christian leaders like Joseph Prince or Kong Hee could one day, when they are still relatively young, “sell all their possessions and give to the poor” I would start to take these people more seriously on two matters:
1. The Teaching That God Blesses One Financially If One Gives In Faith
Surely, if as claimed by some Christian leaders, that God will multiply one’s wealth hundred fold if one gives to the church/ministry in faith, then if rich leaders like Joseph Price or Kong Hee or the leaders in Benny Hinn ministry would give away 90% of their personal wealth (which will be hundreds of millions if billions have not been reached) while they are still relatively young, God will give them back many times of those millions or billions they give away. All that is needed is faith, right? Just give in faith lor. [my goal here is not to find “the secret” formula to wealth, but rather to challenge the hypothesis that God multiply one’s wealth if one gives away part of his wealth in faith]
[by the way, there is a book called “The Secret” (popular among people who are serious about becoming rich) which claims to reveal the secret formula to becoming wealthy. I am not sure if this book is recommended in New Creation. I have heard a person from New Creation quoting one of the most important mantra from “The Secret” which is along the lines of “conceive, believe and you will achieve”. I have heard non-Christians teaching this idea too from “The Secret”. A non-Christian friend can even quote the bible to support some of the teachings in “The Secret”. One of the important hypothesis (I call it hypothesis but the book calls it fact) is that there is some mysterious power in the universe who will respond positively in accordance to what you really ask for (if one keeps thinking that I am poor, one will get exactly that - remain poor). So if you want something (e.g. $500,000 within half a year), work your mind to believe you will get it, and then, you will really get it. You do not need to know how. Just believe. I have heard this many times, and I can see how it can be contextualised and applied in a church setting - have faith… that mysterious Power is God… and so on. I am not advocating this book, just like to point out one possible source of influence on some Christians]
2. Being Kingdom-minded
Talk is cheap. One can talk about his love of God and his devotion to God’s calling to promote His Kingdom on earth but it is better if one demonstrate some radical sacrificial actions to back-up one’s claim.
—
There are delusions (e.g. some preachers are sincere & honest but self-deluded) and there are scams (in both financial and religious “investments”). When one buys the words of teachers of Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Taoism, Hinduism, Atheism, Agnosticism or others, the advice is: buyers beware!
We live in a time which made it tremendously difficult to pray like this:
Two things I ask of you, O LORD;
do not refuse me before I die:
Keep falsehood and lies far from me;
give me neither poverty nor riches,
but give me only my daily bread.
Hi Buddhist-lover,
Wondered if you have seen the DVDs and Books published by Pastor Prince at the TIMES bookshop recently - have you noticed the large protrait of the handsome fellow on each of these covers? (BTW, they are not cheaper than any of the secular books and dvds)
Seems to convey that the messenger is more important than the message.
Wonder who gets the “royalties” for these publications.
Wonder if “Prince” is actually his legal name or just an informal “church/stage” name.
Wonder why the social indicators and satistics for “Christians” are not different from that of the public at large?
These stats indicts us - our talk does not seem to match our walk - sad, very sad.
Is the current practice irrelevant to a better life?
It seems that there are quite a number of people who are quite unhappy that the pastors of mega churches are earning good income and enjoying a high standard of living.
All this griping about the wealth of the pastors seems to be a case of double standards. It is ok for church members to strive for promotions, better salaries, higher bonuses or more business opportunities to increase their wealth and improve their standard of living but the pastors must live on basic standards?
What standards we apply to the pastors surely must apply to the members as well since all are the children of God. Logically then, all Christians must live in basic housing, buy house brands and take public transport to save as much money as possible to give away for “good works”.
Some of the comments seen here seem to suggest that the pastor is living on the charity of the church members and should therefore survive on minimum wage (whatever that amount is). This is belittling the work of the pastor. Shouldn’t the pastor who feed the congregation good spiritual food be well rewarded for his work?
I wonder if those commentators who criticise the preaching of the megachurch pastors have actually listened to the pastors’ sermons (a series of sermons, not just one) for themselves or are their criticisms based on second hand or third hand information from what they heard others say about what the pastors preached?
Some of the commentators seem to think that the church is a place where once you enter, you are trapped there for life. The church is open - people are free to come and go. Those who don’t agree with the pastor’s preaching or the way the church is being run are free to leave. Giving to the church is also voluntary and is actually a personal thing between the giver and God.
I have been attending my present church for the last five years. Before that, I had been attending another church for thirty years since i was a child. No one from my previous or present church has ever questioned me or pressured me on my tithes and offerings. No one from my previous church forced me to remain when I left for my present church.
The church has an open door. If any one of the thousands attending the mega churches are unhappy in any way with their church, they can always leave. Could the fact that they don’t while more are added to their numbers every week mean that the pastors are doing something right ?
Always puzzled when we try to use large numbers as a measure of success or anionting.
How about this analogy.
The healthcare system of a country is very successful because the number of patients keep increasing exponentially every year. The patients are not forced to seek medical attention, they can go as they please
The Health Minister must be doing something right!
My logic sounds abit sick?
Or the minister has convinced more and more of populace that they are sick and needed more healthcare.
Wonder why Jesus warned us about false teachers and prophets if it was so easy to identify the anointed ones simply by counting the number of followers they had.
Mega churches in America have up to 50000 people weekly - see Lakewood at Houston.
Some of these pastors have private jets to help bring the message to 150 nations!
Big is good, Mega is better and world domination is best!
Small and poor, well what is there to say when the logic of large numbers is so compelling.
Hi journeyman,
I am not saying that large numbers means good. Consider the 10 spies who gave a negative report on the Promised Land vs the other 2 spies, Joshua and Caleb who gave a positive report.
However, i must say that your analogy is flawed. Perhaps a more appropriate analogy is that there are many hospitals in Singapore and patients are free to choose where they want to go for treatment. If one of the hospitals continues to receive more and more patients for treatment despite some negative publicity generated by outsiders, maybe there is something good about the hospital that the patients know and like, of which outsiders are unaware or do not understand?
Hi Stanley,
What so good of being convinced that one is sick? If you think you are sick, you are probably right!
Surely the aim of every national healthcare system is to have a healthy society - not great hospitals!
You only need great hospitals when you have a failed healthcare system and you have a SICK population.
We need to balance current healthcare with proactive wellness lifestyles and acceptance of death as a natural condition of life.
Otherwise we will continue to have to feed this insatisfiable budget monster called healthcare demanding more tithes as one feels sicker??
Similarly I believe our current model of mega assemblies led by an “annointed” charismatic pastor leader selected by divine anointing or popular human acclamation is totally flawed. Compelling speakers are gifted but not necessarily annointed or otherwise.
Analyze our 2000 years of religious histroy so far - we are no closer to Holiness than the first the first apostles despite the massive accumulation of knowledge, technology and resources….what a sad indictment of our journey despite the holy sacrifice, redemption and grace given to us!
Yet, we persist happily, going around in circles like chickens without heads - we never use our brain to check for truth and authencity but accept blindly as if annointing is a permenant gift from God.
Jesus has always advocated anointed “servant-leaders.” I do not see that in any of the mega churches worldwide..
Similarly being a seeker Christian is not about remaining a contented cripple forever reliant on a flawed leadership within a comforting assembly.
Gold is refined from ore by fire and there is a season for all things in all our lives as we journey towards Him.
If cripples are content, what is there to say?
I believe this blog is about sharing thoughts and insights so that each may continue on this exciting and vibrant journey.
Are Christians like frogs? Preferring to aggregate in a mega sized strong steel pot over a low gas flame controlled by another frog who can turn the tap but does knows not the direction.
Wonder why human institutions eventually explode or implode.
Which church can be more mega than the Catholic church?
Study their clourful and eventful 2000 year histroy and draw your own conclusions!
I pray comentors to this blog are gracious and open minded, so that each of our journeys can be enriched as we interact.
“I was blind once but now I can see, what amazing Grace!”
Shalom
Hi journey man,
I can see that you are stil blind… completely missing out Stanley’s arguements. You started the analogy of a healthcare system. He merely turned it around to a good hospital is one which has good treatment attracting more patients inspite of bad publicity from rivals.
You said:I pray comentors to this blog are gracious and open minded, so that each of our journeys can be enriched as we interact.
But if anyone was more ungracious and closedminded, it is you! I qoute:
a)Similarly I believe our current model of mega assemblies led by an “annointed” charismatic pastor leader selected by divine anointing or popular human acclamation is totally flawed. Compelling speakers are gifted but not necessarily annointed or otherwise.
b)Similarly being a seeker Christian is not about remaining a contented cripple forever reliant on a flawed leadership within a comforting assembly.
c)If cripples are content, what is there to say?
d)Are Christians like frogs? Preferring to aggregate in a mega sized strong steel pot over a low gas flame controlled by another frog who can turn the tap but does knows not the direction.
In your humble opinion, every pastor of a mega church is flawed however anointed or gifted. Similarly, most if not everyone who attends these mega churches are cripples who enjoy being that way or frogs who are being boiled and killed slowly without knowing.
Such AMAZING GRACE!
Wake up, brother!
Hi Stanley,
Well said!
Further, to say Jesus has no money is not true. He had so much that He needed a treasurer… who today will be charged with CBT.
In any case, what’s so great in living in abject poverty and self denial? It only draws attention to our self righteousness and works righteousness. Those are basic tenets of Buddhism, not the gospel of Jesus.
Jesus… became poor so that we may be rich in Him! ….became a curse for us by hanging on a tree, so that we may receive the blessings of Abraham! Jesus by His finished work on the cross, fulfilled the law in taking our punishment, reconciled us to His Father. Today we live as sons of the Living God!
Of course, as we understand that all we have are because of His grace, freely we receive, freely we give. The more we understand His grace upon our lives, the less we tend to criticise and compare.
Shalom
I recently suggested making a gift to a missions organization/charity in honor of someone’s 80th birthday (since she lives simply, loves and serves the Lord). I was commended for the suggestion but also reminded that since we always have the poor with us, we should bless the 80 year old with another cruise since she really enjoyed the one she had gone on before, rather than give to the poor or to missions this time round. Why? Because she had sacrificed so much over the years for the family.
Okay…so I facetiously suggested we invite the poor to the birthday dinner … but then why not, right? I got no response. I must be crazy to suggest biblical actions but this is to Christians. I guess I don’t love this 80 year old as much as I claim to love the poor. I think we are then the poorer for not loving the poor.
Anyway, not equal amount but equal ability? This does not take into consideration a willingness to give over and above (not just $) but whatever we have been gifted with by God from Whom all Blessings flow…who also makes the rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous…
Buddhism has alot to teach us even if their ultimate goal is different from the Christian’s ultimate goal. They challenge me just as megachurch pastors and their messages challenge me, too. They all challenge me to carefully develop my own clear understanding of a Christian theologically-based life that I should live and the like-minded community I seek to fellowship with or form.
The biggest cause of our current financial problem was GREED - greed for money. Jesus has warned many times in the Bible about the evil of greed for money and materials wealth.
As Pastor Kenny has pointed out in his post, the true treasure is in heaven and that’s the treasure that we should be greedy about.
Since Jesus teaches us to stay away from greed, He live his life as an example for us. His ministry is rich but it was never for building up his business empire or to enrich himself. Did Jesus not preach the word of God better than any of the mega pastor? Why didn’t he pay himself the handsomely? Cause the money is for God’s work and the only business he do is God’s business.
What happen to his treasurer who became greedy for money? He betray Jesus for money and I don’t need to tell you his ending.
tikesz asked : “In any case, what’s so great in living in abject poverty and self denial?” What’s the benefits of living rich and famous? You seems to contradict Jesus. Pastor did not become one to get rich but to serve God.
Jesus and his apostles did not become rich (but they are enjoying eternal life in heaven now) serving God. They do so because it was a calling from God and they know and trust God. Their work may not pay them on earth but their work is accumulating for them their wealth in Heaven. Isn’t that where you want to go? And where the pastor preached that we are going?
I am not saying that it is wrong to be rich and we all have to be poor. What I am saying is that we should not let greed destroy us. Pastor certainly have the moral example to lead us and how can they when they live a rich and famous lifestyle with the money from church-goers?
It is made worst when they do so teaching tithing (which is not enforceable on Christians) and indirectly creating “fear and discomfort” when people do not tithe or cannot afford to tithe.
When the buddhist monk live a simple life and preach his teaching, it reminds us of Jesus Christ who does the same.
Do we get the same feeling looking at a “Korean fashioned” pastor in a flashy high end European executive car?
If I’m not wrong, the ” “Korean fashioned” pastor in a flashy high end European executive car” you are referring to is Pastor Joseph Prince of New Creation Church.
Pastor Prince preached only 4 full sermons over the years about the tithe - perhaps you might want to listen to them personally and discover for yourself (rather than through hearsay) whether the sermons “indirectly create fear and discomfort” (you can purchase the cds from the online store at https://www.destined2reign.com/onlinestore/).
1) The Benefits Of Tithing (15/10/2000)
2) When Your Tithe Reminds God Of Christ (28/4/2002)
3) Your Tithe Testifies That He’s Alive (17/4/2005)
4) God’s Best Kept Secret On Tithing - Can You Take It? (17/2/2008)
The teaching of tithing is questionable in the first place since it is not applicable to Christians. As for “indirectly create fear and discomfort” was what friends who go to NCC projected.
Yes, I have heard him and No, I will never buy his books or CD - as I think some had pointed here that he is not preaching the right things which I agree.
Hi Lim,
I think you are confusing the issues.
We are all agreed that greed for money is wrong and not in accordance with Jesus’ teachings. But you seem to imply that the 2 other pastors mentioned in Blogpastor post are greedy for money and are ministering for money. I don’t think that’s what Blogpastor is saying.
Also about “laying treasures in heaven”… you seem to be saying that if you have “earthly wealth” you are not laying treasures in heaven. I don’t see both as mutually exclusive. Infact may I ask, how do you know the Pastors are not laying up treasures in heaven more abundantly than you?
My point about Jesus having a treasurer was simply to say that He was not without money as some others seem to imply. Neither was He starving as it does seem that He was frequently invited to rich dinners.
I think all of us have to be accountable to the Lord for how we use our money. We should not try to fix standards for others, even if they are leaders and always in the spotlight. In JP case, salaries are decided by the council and the COC of Singapore have given them a clean bill of health. 1Tim 5:17,18 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,”and “The worker deserves his wages.”
You have also missed my point about the gospel of Jesus as being about God’s grace upon our lives. A life of self denial and seeking works righteously does not portray the gospel at all, however sacrificial it may be in the eyes of the world. The gospel is about Jesus finished work on the cross for us… He was rejected so that we may be accepted by the Father.
I will not venture to discuss tithing as Stanley had invited you to listen for yourself.
I just want to repeat my own understanding about giving to the poor and to the extension of the Kingdom: As I freely receive from the abundance of the Lord’s grace poured into my life, I freely give. Of course if one does not want to receive, there is little to give and even then it is out of our own flesh.
Shalom.
Thanks for your feedback. I am merely stating my views. Christianity is about faith, hope and love and nothing is greater than love. Jesus 2 commandments for us would have made that clear. St Paul says every of teh 10 commandment can be substituted by love.
Living a Christian life is about living what we believed in - Jesus and His teachings which is to love.
In Galatians 6:7-9, “If his sowing is in the field of self-indulgence, then his harvest from it will be corruption; if his sowing is in the Spirit, then his harvest from the Spirit will be eternal life. ”
In Lk 6:
39 He also told them a parable, ‘Can one blind person guide another? Surely both will fall into a pit?
40 Disciple is not superior to teacher; but fully trained disciple will be like teacher.
I disagree with “Of course if one does not want to receive, there is little to give and even then it is out of our own flesh.” as giving is more blessed than receiving. And giving is about love…
Not long ago, NKF was also given clean bill despite the top man being paid “$25K peanut” per month but we all know what happen now. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with NCC or CHC or any other churches for that matter. But so far no light was shed on how the pastor pay is based on and how much…
In any case, my point is, a pastor is a servant of God and there are obligations. If rich and famous lifestyle is what they want, pastor may not be the right job. Pastor is after all a full time vocation and life long dedication to God. Their rewards is in eternal life as promised by Jesus. If they cannot showed that they believed in that, how can they expect people they preach to to do so? I am not saying they must be poor but simple lifestyle.
Not here to argue but just stating my point. And we should ask ourselves, “is the God of Jesus speaking through a Buddhist monk?” Why is a monk able to be more “Christ-like” ?
Please clarify for my better understanding: Is greed bad or only when it is greed for money? If greed is bad, then why is it okay to be greedy for true treasure? Or is greed amoral and the problem is with money? I think money is amoral. On some kind of scale, some people will of course say true treasure is better than money. Help me with the concept of GREED because you use it in contradictory ways.
This blog is really looking like a “Hantam NCC” site … also, seems like every post that links to the negatively oriented discussion of the megachurches have the most comments. Aren’t we all a bunch of hypocrites!! …. and we’ll probably meet each other in heaven too…
Hi LBL
Yes I have observed that with some concern.
Whenever the content is megachurch related, Blogpastor gets caught in a heated crossfire in DMZ!
I’ve had to close the comment box in a few battlefields.
It is of course the nature of Web2.0, the new media.
Welcome to this new world. Its not Hong Lim Park.
Maybe I should talk of more mundane matters like what I had for dinner last night. Seriously.
And no they are not a bunch of hypocrites ( I am glad you said “we” not “you guys”), just people who feel strongly about NCC in opposite trenches.
Yes, and knowing God’s sense of humour, all in opposite trenches will be rooming together in heaven forever and ever, singing “Worthy is the Lamb”
Hi Kenny,
I think that’s to be expected since the teachings seems dubious (in my opinions at least) while many main stream Christians do have a problem with their teachings.
You once wondered if all mega church pastor are trained and I wonder too. Which is why Lk 6:40 “Disciple is not superior to teacher; but fully trained disciple will be like teacher.” strike me.
I went to mega churches for a while too and I am glad I no longer do.
In any case, hope you do not be “too concern” and restrict to blogging about “what I had for dinner last night”….
Hope people from NCC do not be too upset too as they do not have to agree. In fact, it would be good if they can provide useful, concrete and sound argument to clear and correct the negative views.
Hi blogpastor,
No… you shouldn’t discontinue discussing megachurches.
It is eye-opening to see so many expressing so strong views about other churches they dont belong to!
My main concern is the ease with which various ones are dismissing certain teachings as wrong and heretical! (Wonder who made them sole guardians of truth.) Also to affirm with such audacity that a Buddhist monk is more “Christlike” with than a fellow Christian ( who is a pastor who may be more fashionable etc) puzzles me.
Maybe after all the heat has died down, light will shine through!
Shalom
Light is already shinning brightly……..
Amen!
BP,
I kind of like your normal posts. I always thought that it was simply, refreshing and edifying when I read them. Sad that you call it “mundane”. However, please keep them coming….
Anyhow, my point is that why not just go create a website that is simply for debating this mega-church topic (or call it “NCC Haters’ Site” ). Mixing this hot topic together with your “mundane” post seem to have made your blog known for the wrong reasons …. or perhaps the right reasons (if thats the intent)??
Oh, before I forget, I come from one of the main stream churches; and am ok with the main NCC messages. I am amazed at some of your readers’ hatred towards NCC. I use strong words because it is what it is …. no matter how the comments are written to buffer the effects!!
LBL
Thanks for your pat on my back.
Like Barnabas Ju-en would have said, “It wagged my bushy tail.”
No, a dedicatied website such as you suggested will descend into a Christian ghetto where even angels fear to tread.
I look forward to the day when we can take a friendly dig at one another and nobody’s eyes get gouged.
Better still, take a dig at ourselves and have a hearty laugh.
Hi blogpastor,
It is perfectly alright to disagree with NCC’s teachings and have a proper discussion about this. However, sadly I do not see any proper discussion, just disagreements and accusations being thrown about by people who did not even listen to the sermons that they claim are wrong teachings.
A case in point is Lim who stated “The teaching of tithing is questionable in the first place since it is not applicable to Christians” but let me ask: why is tithing not applicable to Christians?
Pastor Prince preached that it is applicable, so if Pastor Prince’s teaching is wrong, Lim should enlighten us by pointing out Pastor Prince’s error and all of us can benefit from his wisdom and gain from this fruitful discussion.
Alas, Lim does not want to listen to Pastor Prince’s sermons. He merely wishes to state that he disagrees with those sermons he has not heard. How enlightening!
Hi Stanley,
I am not here to attack anybody but merely stating what I think. If I am wrong, let me know. You accuse me of disagreeing without hearing JP’s sermon which is 100% UNTURE….I stated that I have heard it.
Go to : http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/
which is one of the many sites that explains why tithing is not applicable.
If questions are raised about teachings of my Church, I will do a search and seek and discern - pray and God will show us the truth.
I am not against everything about mega churches and disagree for the sake of disagreeing.
Hi Lim,
You took one swipe at all NCC’s teachings- “the teachings seems dubious”- not just “tithing”, without explaining why. Surely if you wish to make such statements you need to back them up. You cannot be so careless with your words. In another arena you would be sued for libel!
Further you make such a big fuss about “tithing” as though it’s the only thing that NCC teaches. Stanley has already written to say that JP preached only 4, I repeat a total of 4, sermons in 8 years (from Oct 15 2000 to the present) on tithing!!! Check your facts lah.
Thirdly, different churches may have slightly different emphases. That’s why we have different denominations etc. Have some charity… don’t just look at the speck in another church…we certainly can agree to disagree on some non-essentials. (Afterall, you can agree with a Buddhist monk’s lifestyle!)
BTW, I am a member and attend a mainline denomination church regularly and have visited NCC only 2 Sundays in the past 8 years!
Shalom
I do not wish to turn this into discussion about tithing but this is just 1 more link for your reading pleasure:
http://www.ukapologetics.net/tithe.htm
there are many more…..and hope that’s enlightening to you.
Hi Lim,
My point is not about whether tithing is right or wrong. We do not have to agree with each other but the point I was trying to make is that a fruitful discussion can only be achieved by finding out both sides of an issue and then making a decision for or against it.
Thank you for the links you provided about the issue of tithing. I have read the article by Robin A. Brace and the points that he made had been addressed by Pastor Prince in his sermons about the tithe. The article by Robert Earl Kelly, Ph.D is rather long, and I will try to finish it. I will listen to Pastor Prince’s sermons again and I think I will benefit even more from the sermons now that I can see how Pastor Prince’s arguments match up against those by the 2 authors.
Hi Stanley,
We should not use tithing as a “grooming tool.” to get poor members of the congregation to part with sometimes a scarce resource by using the name of God for human needs like running the church.
If we cannot be even honest with our intentions, is there hope in these types of organization?
Suggest that tithing should be for God’s work only - feeding the poor, helping the opressed, healing the sick etc.
Membership fee is for paying the church’s liabilites including all staff, state taxes, facilities, utilities, loans etc. Minimum is 1 and max is dependent on the individual.
This way, we can be transparent and good stewards of the reources given to our care.
Wonder why Chruches need to hide their finances from their membership - maybe insecurity leads us to horde resources but like NKF too much of a good thing can kill you.
Hi journeyman,
I have attended church for more than 30 years, and never have I heard that church members have to pay a “membership fee.”
Like I’ve said earlier, all tithes and offerings brought to the church are strictly voluntary and a personal matter between the giver and God. If any church member is not satisfied with the way the funds are handled by the church leadership, he can always choose not to give or he can also choose to leave the church for somewhere better.
As an organisation, the megachurches have been reviewed by the COC and found to be satisfactory. If a church member still can’t trust the leadership despite a well-publicized government audit, then he should leave the church, why stick around?
Hi Blogpastor,
Have found new insights from interacting - aim is to find MERDEKA in my spiritual and somatic dimensions without being anarchic or antimonial.
New directions are never comfortable for we have to forgo the familiar and comforting. The jouney thus far has been fulfilling and rewarding but with ups and downs.
Thank you for your blogging space and blessings to your family for your pastoring heart.
Shalom
For all the discussion that has taken place so far, i keep remembering what my OT/Hebrew prof once said during our study of the Psalms. Rich or poor - what the issue is (following our discussion on some of the psalms) is holiness. Wealth was seen as a blessing while being poor was a curse in Jewish theology (remember Job?) but the prof reminded us that that’s not God’s basis of measurement but whether one was holy or not. Of course this leads to another major discussion - what does it mean to be holy?
Some Christians tend to elevate poverty as a superior form of spirituality (historically this has been in reaction to the excesses of the institutionalized church e.g. St Francis of Assiss, the Medicants, etc) while some other Christians elevate wealth as a more blessed state of spirituality as it indicated being specially touched by God.
We live in a world that despite whatever we do, some Christians will always be poor (the countries where governments are corrupt, there is war, no infrastructure, etc) and some Christians will always have wealth. Would we point at poor and starving Christians in various countries and suggest that it is because they have not “named it and claimed it” or they have not implemented “the Secret” or they are not praising God and applying their spiritual gifts as they should? Do we then point out economically sound and successful Christians as examples of God’s blessings or of their applying God’s principles more rightly than others?
We have to remember these are standards of measurement are faulty and at best very fleshly. It reflects a problem with our theology which may need conversion!
I think a question we need to ask if “How does God measure us (if God does such a thing at all)” rather than “How are these people measuring up to MY standard of what a good Christian is?”
We do not live in isolation but in community and that’s why this discussion has been lively because we see all Christians as part of the greater Christian community we are a part of and some of us feel that or believe strongly that certain people in Christendom should adhere to a certain standard - especially the leaders who should be measured against Paul’s teachings to Timothy or the OT’s standard for priests and prophets, judges and kings (and queens). Some of us will respect certain types of leadership more than other types while some of us are don’t really care if the leader is good-looking or not, eloquent or a stutterer or drives a car or rides a motorbike. It actually reflects on us on whether we will follow a certain type of leader or another as it has to do with how we read and interpret Scripture and our theology.
If we look at biblical examples of leadership, we have a good mix of rich and poor (which are simply worldly standards). The question we need to ask is “How did God view and judge these leaders?” By the same token, we need to also ask ourselves, “Is the life we are living pleasing to God?”
Hi Maria, you raised a great point - “Is the life we are living pleasing to God?”
I don’t think there’s anything wrong about pastors living in semi-D or condo or driving a ‘higher-end’ car around. What’s important is: are their lives pleasing to God?
Jesus came as a human and live simply to identify with the people in His time. He identified with them, but he was not identical. He wasn’t a destitute but He wasn’t rich too. He lived simply because He wanted to identify with His people.
Does that mean we should live a luxurious life so as to identify with common people? Looking at the stats, we should know that most people are either in the middle income bracket or lower income. The rich are always the minority.
The lessons we should draw from this post is: What are we doing with the wealth God has given us? It does not matter if you are living in a bungalow or HDB. What matters is: what are you doing with the money God has given you? Are you supporting your church(through your tithes and offerings)? Are you supporting an orphan who is hungry in some poor countries? Are you supporting a missionary? Are you supporting a mission school that reaches out to the poor with the gospel? It will be good for each one of us who have commented here to do a personal check now.
let’s not stop at just tithes and offerings. they are good. but we can always do better because we can always give more. “Earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can” - John Wesley.
I would say living in what kind of accommodation, owning what kind of car, and possessing what kind of gadgets are personal preferences(or liking). Though we have the freedom to choose, the image one portrays does matter. However, it is not our business to change someone’s mind(in fact, we don’t have this ability, no matter how influential we can be). Only God can do it. And God will change the person if He thinks a certain lifestyle/image is not good. Otherwise, what can your anger or upset state do? Nothing. You should instead channel your energy into teaching each other how we ought to live for Him, and honour Him with the wealth He has given us. Again the question - “is the life we are living pleasing to God?”
So then, as Christian brothers and sisters, we ought to -
1. Love one another as the Lord Jesus had loved us. Cos by this, all men will know we are His disciples. (john 13:34-35)
And
2. Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth…(2 tim 2:23-25)
p.s. i am not saying the comments here have come to a point of quarreling. It looks like one. i hope it has not reached this stage. And I am not saying so-and-so needs to repent. What we can deal with, we deal with it with His help. What we cannot deal with, ’shut up’ & simply follow Him.
This post is to answer journeyman’s question to me, and then to respond to tidesz’s remarks on Buddhism.
1. Question from journeyman
“Hi Buddhist-lover, wondered if you have seen the DVDs and Books published by Pastor Prince at the TIMES bookshop recently - have you noticed the large protrait of the handsome fellow on each of these covers? (BTW, they are not cheaper than any of the secular books and dvds) Seems to convey that the messenger is more important than the message…Wonder if “Prince” is actually his legal name or just an informal “church/stage” name. These stats indicts us - our talk does not seem to match our walk - sad, very sad…”
Reply: No I have not seen those. I only read biblical scholar Rev Dr Gordon Wong’s critique (critique does not mean criticism) of Prince’s recent book. I attended only New Creation once (during that service they talked about getting healed of medical problems by having faith in God. At other times, I have mixed with NCC worshippers and have heard their remarks about God blessing his people with wealth. Perhaps one day I should borrow Prince’s book to do a critique on it, though the Rev Dr Gordon Wong seemed to have done a very good job in his gracious critique of Prince’s book.
Perhaps others who want to criticize Prince teachings only after giving a fair hearing of Joseph Prince’s teaching can borrow (if they do not want to buy that book) his book to read first. The critiques will then not be base on “hear-say” but on solid evidence from that book.
Enjoy your faith-journey ?
2. My response to tikesz’s remarks (2008-10-14 03:19:44) on Buddhism
tikesz said, “In any case, what’s so great in living in abject poverty and self denial? It only draws attention to our self righteousness and works righteousness. Those are basic tenets of Buddhism, not the gospel of Jesus.”
Living in “self-denial” and voluntary “poverty” (or to put it positively, it is living simply so that others may simply live), while is not expected of every Christian, does have very positive spiritual benefit. Go and read John Wesley’s teachings on the subtleness of sin and his remedy of living simply and giving away as much wealth as one can. Living in voluntary. It is also great because more resources can be diverted to help others who can hardly survive. The Roman Catholic Church has wisely preserved some monistic orders where priests do not have any personal possessions (except for things like passport and robe?), similar to the Theravada monk Ajahn Brahm. Living in “self-denial” and poverty, base on a right motive, would not have the problem of “drawing attention to our self-righteousness and works righteousness”.
There is nothing wrong being rich per se – it is the context that determines if it is right or wrong. The rich man who remains rich in the presence of a starving Lazarus at his doorstep would be a context where being rich is wrong. (see the parable mentioned by Luke’s Gospel). Most of us do not have starving neighbours, but then, technology has made the world into a global village that our neighbour can be those people starving in some parts of Africa, for example.
Sometimes good role models are correct to point to themselves as good examples for the purpose of helping others to live a truly better life (e.g. a life relatively free from greed and consumerism), just like Saint Paul who urges others to imitate him just as he imitates Christ.
So drawing others’ attention to self, per se, does not necessarily be improper. It depends on the motive (e.g. to encourage others not to be so attached to wealth) and the way one does it.
The monk probably did not initiate the newspaper coverage but rather it would probably be others who have known him who suggested the idea of doing an article using him as an example in contrast to the apparent rampant consumerism and the super-subtle materialism (as John Wesley pointed out, the sin of greed can be very subtle and difficult for one to be aware of even as it sneaks into our heart and captures our heart, while we continue to think and preach that “there is no problem being rich as long as we are not in love with riches”. That is John Wesley said that one good way to guide oneself against such subtle sin is to give away as much as one can)
“Further, to say Jesus has no money is not true. He had so much that He needed a treasurer….”
I assume the above is not to be taken literally to mean the pre-easter Jesus had so much money that he needed a treasurer. Is there any historian or biblical scholar who argued that Jesus had so much money that he needed a treasurer?
Hi Buddhist lover,
You said “There is nothing wrong being rich per se – it is the context that determines if it is right or wrong.” I can’t agree more. Yet you contradict yourself when you seem to prejudge JP and others.
How do you know he does not give to the poor? How do you know that he does not give away a bigger percentage of his income than you?
On another note, if we do want to draw a wrong motive for people living in self denial, then why draw wrong motives for people who are living out the blessings of God in their lives.
I also agree with you that the monk did not ask for media attention. But it was people like you who drew attention to him and use him as an example to lambast JP and others.
I would like to think that the challenge today is to be a testimony of the abundant blessings and grace of the Lord in one’s life in the midst of rampant consumerism and materialism and yet not be swallowed by them. (Frankly, very few would or can follow the monk’s way of life…not even you!)
The gospels record that Jesus had a treasurer who stole from the money bag and yet self righteously condemn the waste of the perfume poured out to anoint Jesus! So much money?…not sure. But enough for someone to manage and steal!
Shalom
Hi Buddhist-lover,
Actually I have alot of legal and finance industry friends who attend NCC and have been given several audio CDs to enlighthen me - the Pastor’s teaching and the church’s philosophy did not resonate.
Was left wondering about who was actually in charge if God could be petitioned by prayers and pleadings.
The fulfilment of one’s heartfelt desire is taken as a sign of concordance with HIS will seems at odds with my limited understanding of the providential and moral will of God.
We have had a Turkish muslim scholar enlighten our little cell group between the similarities and differences between the “Book” religion from an Islamist viewpoint - it was quite a mind expander.
Regarding my own faith journey - have had many unexpected mentors.
Lots of ups and down but there is progress. Starting to have the feeling that the(my) world is not black and white as I had thought previously but one of many paths where the destination was never the reason d’etre.
Sometimes you do come across intolerant zealots and in those circumstance am reminded of 2 wise quotes:
Waldo Emerson: “Fear always springs from ignorance”
Martin Luther King: “Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
Like your moniker and your thought provocation - do you still prefer the sincere practise of a philosophy turned into a religion (Buddhism) instead of the religious rituals of formalized Christianity.
Maybe our dialogue will get visitors and commentators alike to reflect on their own belief and value systems.
Shalom.
“There is nothing wrong being rich per se – it is the context that determines if it is right or wrong. The rich man who remains rich in the presence of a starving Lazarus at his doorstep would be a context where being rich is wrong. (see the parable mentioned by Luke’s Gospel). Most of us do not have starving neighbours, but then, technology has made the world into a global village that our neighbour can be those people starving in some parts of Africa, for example.”
Recalled my memory of a certain mega church in Sg whose online Sunday service my former housemate used to visit whenever he missed church. Halfway tru worship, when the church in question was paying their tithe, a message will flash on the screen for online congregrant to pay through credit card. And we were in KL that time. Talk about globalization, a click will send monies into the church’s coffer.
To share a quote by Jacques Ellul shared by a friend recently:
“When a person believes in God’s good intentions, and when a person seeks the kingdom, then money worries recede. This looks quite natural, but in truth it is the glorious work of God’s victory in us. Now this absence of worry does not in any way mean laziness or carelessness. We must not substitute human failings and sins for the freedom given by God.
We are not called, like birds, to wait for our food to drop out of the skies. We are not birds, and we are called by God to exercise certain functions, to shoulder certain responsibilities. We must of course earn our living and fulfill our obligations to society, but as we do so, we know that these are not the most important things in our lives, and we ask God to calm our anxiety.
We must be free with regard to money and the work which provides it. This attitude is truly a living testimony. It shows our trust in God better than any words could do.”
We are not freed from worries to think about god’s kingdom because god blessed us with wealth, as I often hear ppl say - “God bless us with wealth so that we can bless kingdom work”. But we are freed from worries, even worries about monies because of god’s kingdom. And all things shall be added unto you?
Anyway, I think all of us agree on many things, including having money is neither good nor evil. Perhaps our concern is really when Christians or rather Congregations are not exercising frugality even though we claim to follow the teachings of the Apostles, and one of the Apostles wrote:
“To the present hour we hunger and thirst, we are poorly dressed and buffeted and homeless, and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure; when slandered, we entreat.