Focus on God’s agenda for the gays
The church in Singapore could do herself much good by reorienting her focus on God’s agenda for the gays, instead of the publicly perceived homophobia of the church and its fear of the gays’ agenda for the world. The gays may have an agenda, but so does God, and God’s agenda and love plan for the gays and the world is what will prevail. The church can ask, “Lord, how can we partner with You in what You are doing among the gays, and how can we join You in Your work”? One thing this would involve is the church seeking to understand and inculcate compassion and develop church ministry and care of gay inclined believers. It will take the church out of a war footing into a posture of peacemaking, towels and basins. It will mean the church identifying with the marginalized, taking risks, and serving with humility.
I was reading a friend’s review of a book titled, ‘Washed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality’ by Wesley Hill, who is Assistant Professor of Biblical Studies at Trinity School for Ministry. Sze Zeng summarized three lessons he picked up. They helped me see the struggles and loneliness of believers who experience same sex attraction. It helped me feel the plight and pain of brothers and sisters who often endure it all in anonymity. I have quoted two of his lessons. For the third lesson, please read his full blogpost.
Lesson 1: Same-sex attraction is real—the need to struggle with it.
There are those among us who are really and genuinely feel attracted to people of the same gender. For this reason, many have tried to find a connection between same-sex attraction and their childhood. Some even try to link sexuality to gene. Hence the whole debate between ‘nature versus nurture’. Accordingly, there are ‘therapies’ designed to help people to change their sexuality.
The author cuts through this impasse debate by talking about his own personal discovery of his homosexual orientation. He was brought up in a non-abusive childhood and had a fairly good upbringing. It was during high school years that he sensed a “steady, strong, unremitting, exclusive sexual attraction to persons of the same sex” (p.13). The unchangeable sexual desire for homosexual relationship is real to him and to those who experience it. Since then his life is marked by fear, persistent loneliness and inner conflict.
Hill asked a probing question, which I think many homosexual Christians are asking as well, “Can we gay and lesbian Christians who experience no change in our homoerotic desires live in the joyful assurance that our lives are satisfying to God? Can we who remain homosexually inclined actually please God?” (p.135).
To Hill, the answer depends on our understanding of homosexuality: What do the Scripture and Church tradition say? Hill is clear that same-sex attraction is “one of the myriad tragic consequences of living in a fallen world stalked by the specters of sin and death” (p.32). With full conviction and tireless struggle, Hill writes, “I abstain from homosexual behaviour because of the power of that scriptural story” (p.61), and such endurance is a “daily dying” (p.71). As Hill further affirms, “I am waiting for the day when I will receive the divine accolade, […] “Well done, good and faithful servant” (p.150). Hill’s spiritual persistence is exemplary for all Christians in dealing with our own temptation, be it on sexuality or otherwise.
Lesson 2: Homosexuality comes with unbearable loneliness—the necessity of a trustworthy and supportive community within the church.
The loneliness experienced by those with homosexual inclination is not easily understood by heterosexuals. Gay Christians cannot relate to their heterosexual peers’ interest in the opposite gender. They have to be careful not to jeopardize their friendship by developing romantic interest with friends of the same gender. They are afraid that they will be rejected and discriminated when their sexuality is known by their family, friends, and church-mates. They have to constantly struggle against the desire of entering into a monogamous homosexual relationship, especially in society where homosexual practice is widely accepted and legally protected (e.g. civil partnership and same-sex ‘marriage’). On top of these, they have to face negligence in various degrees by their heterosexual friends who eventually get married and start their own family. To Hill, loneliness is the “defining struggle” of his life (p.92) that makes him feels “painfully contradictory” (p.115).
“What I wish,” as Hill once said to his pastor, “is that I could feel the church to be a safe place” (p.42). “The remedy for loneliness—if there is such a thing this side of God’s future—is to learn, over and over again, to do this: to feel God’s keeping presence embodied in the human members of the community of faith, the church” (p.113). Writing from Hill’s own experience with his church, “I began to learn to wrestle with my homosexuality in community over many late-night cups of coffee and in tear-soaked, face-on-the-floor times of prayer with members of my church” (p.48, italics original) Are we, as part of the local churches, willing to learn to provide the kind of safe space for our brothers and sisters in Christ to wrestle with their same-sex attraction?
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Dear blogpastor,personally would prefer to avoid terms like gay christian, lesbian christian, alcoholic christian, drug addict christian, christian atheist ( all oxymorons ?) as in Christ we are a new creation, although we may still be struggling with sins like gambling, drugs, heterosexual and homosexual sins. Thank God for the Church in Spore to rise up and speak up against the homosexual agenda esp with regards to section 377a etc.Yes the church needs to learn to love the LGBTs just like we do for drug addicts or anyone struggling with sins but must stand up against the agenda.
Point taken, just thinking.
Think the church should stick to spiritual affairs and the social morality of its own members – secular affairs should be left to politicians and the citizenry. Society will be reflection of these constituents. When we mix religion and civil society we set up unnecessary friction points that will eventually rob us of tranquility and peace that we all need for living a life abundant (whatever each of us perceive that to be) – we need to accept we are all different and each of us are oblivious to our idiosyncratic craziness because it is always the other guy’s fault, never our own.
Let those who are without sin cast the first stone – let us not make God responsible for our own failings. If we cannot accept others, why should we expected anything. Chaos theory state that a butterfly flutter can set off a massive superstorm, will a intolerant act or belligerent statement do any less?
I agree also that church and political affairs should be kept separate, for the sake of peace with the rest of society.
That is not to say that we approve of every decision made, but that our focus on earth should be with our own relationship with God. I think the fact that Jesus was entirely unconcerned about political matters in His entire ministry here on earth should raise some red flags for us.
Thanks for humanizing the struggles of our fellow Christian brothers and sisters around.
Yes, Wendy, these things should not be discussed as issues, abstactions, principles or strategies but as real people with faces and tears and pain and anger.
Quoting from the article: “There are those among us who are really and genuinely feel attracted to people of the same gender. For this reason, many have tried to find a connection between same-sex attraction and their childhood. Some even try to link sexuality to gene. Hence the whole debate between ‘nature versus nurture’. Accordingly, there are ‘therapies’ designed to help people to change their sexuality.”
This kind of rationalization by humans for their sins/evil-deeds can also be applied to people who feel attracted(sexually) to children, their sisters/mothers/daughters/etc, their dogs/cows/camels/goats/etc, to rape others, etc.
What does the Word of God say about homos.? Read ROMANS.1 and LEV.18:22, etc.
…….Bc these people purposely rejected the rule of God, even though they were aware of the existence of God after observing the wonderful world of nature – so, God also purposely rejected them as heteros and transformed them into homos.
….Hence, if homos repent and accept the “burdensome” rule of God, God will convert them back into normal heteros and may also save them.
Even though the secular laws of Singapore allow adultery, the laws/Word of God do not.(REV.22:15, 1COR.6:9-11, GAL.5:16-23) If adulterers do not repent and stop adulterating, they will be condemned by God to hell after they die. There is no such thing as an adulterer believer, viz-a-viz a gay believer or lesbian believer or pedophile believer or incestuous believer. It is an oxy-moron, ie a true believer, when confronted with their sin/evil-deed, will repent and not continue in sin.(1JOHN.3:8, 1COR.5:1-5, HEB.10:26-31)
….Homosexuality is similarly allowed by the secular laws of Singapore. The laws/Word of God do not.
….Homos and adulterers need to repent of their sin/evil-deed. This also applies to idolators, thieves, liars, sorcerers(dabbling in the occult), etc.
Churches that tolerate and condone unrepentant homos are not true Churches, esp those that have gay bishops and pastors. Maybe, these false Churches want to hv more members and tithes by giving up their principles and integrity. They r more like politicians who pander for votes by selling their soul.
I think God will give homos some time to repent but stubborn and unrepentant homos will be rejected by God and His heaven.
….Similarly, newly converted Gentile Christians r given time by God to transform their former lawless Gentile lives into law-abiding ones. They are not to use their liberty from Moses Law(exemptions given at ACTS.15:29) to remain forever in their former Gentile lawlessness. Lawlessness/sins/evil-deeds will result in curses/punishments from God or His agents = afflicted by calamities. Unrepentant/untransformed new GC run the risk of cursing God and die while suffering such calamities(eg cancer), eg the wife of Job.
….Example: Chinese tradition values sons more than daughters bc of the system of surnames. So, many Chinese families sin(do evil) against their daughters by spoiling their sons and mistreating their daughters or desiring to hv sons(instead of daughters). The people chosen by God, the Jews, did not hv surnames, eg Joshua, son of Nun(similar to Muslim names). So, the Jews did not hv this tendency to sin against their daughters.
P S – Recently, a Roman Catholic cardinal from South Africa opined that pedophilia is a mental illness caused by childhood sexual abuse and not a crime that should be punished. I think his rationalization serves to justify pedo-priests and the Roman Catholic Church’s decades of cover-up.
….I think the root cause of the prevalence of pedo-priests is the RCC’s ban on marriage for priests and the use of boys in their lithurgy, mass and ceremonies.
I don’t think Blogpastor or anybody else is saying that homosexuality is not a sin, but rather that we should understand that these people really struggle with it, just like we also struggle with our own secret weaknesses whether we like to admit it or not. I bet everyone here is a chief sinner – some might be proud bigots or indulge in pornography or habitual liars etc.
We all fall short of God’s justice and are saved solely by His mercy, so I think the prejudiced targeting of homosexuals by Christians today is just stinking self-righteous hypocrisy. We should remember to remove the plank from our own eye instead.
@ Ben …….
1TIM.1:5-17(NKJV) = 5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
[Glory to God for His Grace]
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am CHIEF.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
Paul was an example of a chief-sinner, ie when he(as Saul) was still a Pharisee(=lawyer), he had arrested many Christians and sent them for execution by the Roman rulers.
When Jesus/HS miraculously confronted him about his great sin, he repented and stopped all his evil actions against the Christians.
….Even though he had received the grace of God, converted to Christianity and became the apostle to the Gentiles, Jesus still had to punish him with much earthly sufferings for his previous great sins/evil-deeds. Paul experienced much suffering and deprivation during his ministry, for the sake of Jesus and His gospel.(ACTS.9:4-16)
I think, presently, such a miraculous conversion that had produced an exceptional apostle, is quite rare, as to be non-existent.
There is a big difference in the conduct of sincere sinners, b4 and after they come to the knowledge of the truth or convicted of their sins and inborn sinful desires.
….True believers are usually sinners who had repented of their former sins/evil-deeds and stopped repeating them. Those sinners who remain in their sins/evil-deeds, even after receiving the knowledge of the truth, hv actually rejected God and His Word/laws/commandments.
Unrepentant homo-”believers” are not true believers. Churches that condone and tolerate homosexuality in the Church are not true Churches.(REV.2:12-26 = Churches of Pergamum and Thyatira)
I think the Love Singapore churches have espounded on the difference between homosexuals and the homosexual agenda. Not to mention Christians but just as citizens of the country we should know and understand their agenda. Praise God that he is using the church and Christians to rise up and fight for the right morals and values to be established for Songapore. We are called to be the salt and light of the world. But please try and understand the agenda and you will stand up for the country as citizens and we are not even bringing in the religious factor
If a pastors makes the representation on behalf of a church organization in the political sphere, this sets up many future friction points with other non Christian religious organizations who may feel equally justified – intolerance and zealots are not great attributes for a gracious society.
We can only become the “light and salt” of the earth when we have a higher level of personal and collective standards of integrity, ethics and behavior that exudes grace and love.
Is there any point to loud professions when the (Christian) our own social indicators are not metrically different from the general public. (divorce, abortion, crime, poverty etc………)
Let’s us put our own houses in order before we try to define the standards of others. Intolerance is a short
distance from hatred.
As a simple minded believer, always thought the essence of the Bible could be summarized a simple statements – love God with all your being and love your neighbor as you would yourself……..if we cannot even do this, is there any point in fancy assembly and majestic rituals?
@ Journeyman …….
MATTHEW.22:34-40(NIV)
The Greatest Commandment
34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Footnotes:
[a] MATT.22:37/DEUT.6:5, [b] MATT.22:39/LEV.19:18
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
MARK.11:15-19(KJV)
15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.
19 And when evening was come, he went out of the city.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
1CORINTHIANS.5:1-13(KJV)
5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
I think, to really love God first(cf: to love their neighbor next), Christians need to be aware of how their conduct in the House of God/Church affects the feelings of God/JC/HS.
…….How are certain Christians loving God by appointing unrepentant, still-practicing, sinning homosexuals to positions of leadership in His House/Church, ie as lay leaders, pastors and bishops.?
….Aren’t such Christians who love their unrepentant homosexual neighbors or socialize with them in Church, hating on God or doing things that greatly displeases Him.?(LEV.18:22 – homosexuality is an abomination to God)
….Should an unrepentant homosexual or adulterer or incestor or murderer or thief or idolater who professes to be a Christian, be considered as a Christian brother/sister to be loved by repentant Christians.?(cf: 1JOHN.2:10)
Should good Christians invite non-reformed drunkards, gamblers, womanizers, drug-addicts, rapists, pedophiles, thieves, murderers, gangsters, homosexuals, bisexuals, pondans, etc, into their houses and hv them as family friends.?
There is a big difference between inside-the-Church and outside-the-Church. The Church may conduct outreach to homosexuals and other sinners/law-breakers outside the Church. But to bring homosexuality or adultery or pedophilia or incest or bestiality or womanizing or thieving or murdering or idolatry or gangsterism or drugs or sinning/law-breaking into the Church will greatly displease God.
….The apostle to the (lawless)Gentiles, Paul, had forbidden these sins/evil-deeds from being practiced by any member of the Church bc the body is the temple of God.(1COR.6:19) Those(non-Christians) who practice such evil outside the Church or in the world are of less concern to Paul or beyond his jurisdiction.
It’s like how Protestant America is now being destroyed from within by the “infiltration” of non-patriotic illegal Latino migrants and former Black slaves, Muslim terrorist traitors and foreign technology spies(Chinese) bc of America’s inclusiveness or melting-pot culture.
The kosher food laws taught the law-abiding Jews to not socialize with the mostly lawless Gentiles, eg in marriage, business partnership, close friendship, etc.(2COR.6:14-18) That was why the Lord Jesus Christ never preached to the “unclean” Gentiles, about 2,000 years ago: Was Jesus being unloving to the Gentiles.?
At times, it is not wise to love others at the expense of loving God or loving self. Try loving a drug-addict or gambling-addict or terrorist(like Osama bin Laden) and see what happens.
….There are people in this world who choose to behave like a devil. No amount of prayer or loving can alter the will of a devilish person/satanist.(1JOHN.5:16)
….That is why Jesus will be returning to earth soon. He will execute judgement on the billions of unrepentant unbelievers, homosexuals and other sinners on earth. People will reap what they hv sowed, ie when that day comes, the unsaved hv only themselves to blame; they can’t blame God bc the gospel of salvation is available at nearly every corner of the earth or at the click of a mouse.(MATT.24:14)
@NPc
Politics is just a set of cultural norms to ensure groupie cohesiveness either inclusive or exclusive dependent on the sociopathic nature of its leaders and their charisma.
Like sexuality, the “Christian” church has a continuum from the altruistic to the fringe lunacy; from the Catholics to the Protestant, Reformists, Evangelical, Charismatic and Pentecostals and the list goes on……….when mistaken religious fervency becomes intolerant and zealous we have seen many justifications of wars and advent of incredible human barbarity and depravity. Remember the Crusaders, Ku Klux Klan, Slavers (or how the Western civilization enriched themselves from the 17-20th Century. Remember Bush and his calling upon his “Christian” God to bless the War in Iraq he deceptively unleashed on
Since we now know that the are no significant differences between the general public and professed “Christians,” it would be safe for us to assume that such incredulously inhuman behavior will be the same in both groups. In the final outcome, there is no difference, no matter what you believe!
How can that be, since most would agree “salt and light of the world.”
Being neither a religious scholar or very smart man, seems to me, we should leave the JUDGEMENT process to Jesus when He returns and not try to be “kek kiang,” – do not believe any Christian or Pastor, Archbishop, Cardinal Apostle or “Prince of the Church” or whatever holy honorific has any shred of credibility to act as judge or even advocate since it comes from the mind of a broken and extremely sinful Man (more than one mortal sin!)
Wud like to share a personally very profound verse with you
1 Corinthians 13
New International Version (NIV)
13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Methinks naively that if we cannot obey His greatest commandment, profess and exude LOVE, why bother being “Biblically knowledgable??”
I am sorry, Non-Pentecostal, but I cannot disagree with you more.
I think this is fundamentally a difference between our approaches – you see the Bible as book of dos and donts, I see it as a book about the true Lamb.
You see Jesus as someone who demands moral excellence from His followers, but the Jesus I know paid for my wrongdoings and imparts His righteousness to me freely and I desire to do good now because of what He has first done for me.
You see Christians who love their unrepentant homosexual neighbors or socialize with them as “hating on God”. But the Jesus I know eats and drinks (ie, “hangs out” in modern vernacular) with tax collectors and prostitutes, so much so that He was accused of being a FRIEND of tax collectors and sinners by the Pharisees.
You say it is sometimes not wise to love others at the expense of loving yourself, but Jesus clearly said to love our enemies and pray for them (including drug-addicts and gambling-addicts and terrorists).
You say no amount of prayer can alter the will of a devilish person, but Jesus said what is impossible with men is possible with God.
Can we all just dump the traditional religious nonsense that we have been fed since young and realize that Jesus is more awesome than we think?
@ Ben …….Those tax-collectors and prostitutes that the Lord Jesus “hung out” with, had all repented and stopped their tax-collecting, prostituting and followed Jesus, eg Mary Magdalene.
….They were not unrepentant tax-collectors and prostitutes who kept on sinning after meeting and listening to Jesus or like unrepentant homosexuals and adulterers who kept on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth from the Church.
Bear in mind that it was Roman rule(about 2,000 years ago) that had allowed such sins/evil-deeds to be committed by some Jews bc Moses Law in a prior Jewish kingdom had prohibited sins like prostitution.
Ben, since nothing is impossible with God, please pray to God to change the will of Satan and turn him into a harmless dove on earth.*sarcasm*
I don’t understand why you persist in adding conditions to the company that Jesus “hung out” with. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus ate and drank with them BECAUSE they repented or were worthy in any way. Neither does it say that Jesus chose to give His friendship because He knew that afterwards they will all repent.
What the Bible is silent about, then please also be silent about it. If the Bible says that Jesus was accused as a FRIEND of tax collectors and prostitutes by His enemies no less, then He was a friend to sinners indeed, period.
Your assertion that Christians who love their unrepentant neighbours or homosexuals are actually hating God, is ridiculous and bordering on heresy at best. I’ll ask you to tread carefully.
But cling on to your law-based opinions if you must. I don’t think you and I have anything more to say or agree on this subject.
“Ben, since nothing is impossible with God, please pray to God to change the will of Satan and turn him into a harmless dove on earth.*sarcasm*”
Sigh.
Besides the fact that such prayer is NOT in the will of God for him (as is plainly and obviously shown in Scripture and more explicitly in Revelations), I am also not moved or concerned in any way to pray as such with Jesus in my life.
@ Ben says:
26/03/2013 at 4:12 pm
JOHN.5:14 = Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”
JOHN.8:11 = She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”
……. …….
MATT.10(NKJV)
MATT.15:21-28(NKJV) = A Gentile Shows Her Faith
21 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”
23 But He answered her not a word.
And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
After overcoming the temptations of Satan, the Lord Jesus began His ministry to His fellow Jews by preaching, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”(MATT.4:17)
Like Jesus, most of His fellow Jews had passed the test of temptations by Satan, ie by obeying the laws/Word of God. Cf: lawless Gentiles.
That was why, about 2,000 years ago, Jesus came down to earth among the law-abiding Jews and not among the Chinese or other lawless Gentiles.
But alas, many of these good Jews made the grave mistake of rejecting Jesus as their Messiah/Christ/Savior bc of their intense desire for the return of their earthly kingdom, Israel. They failed at the final hurdle of the 110m hurdle race to heaven.
Presently, most Gentiles do not hv this hang-up about suffering under foreign occupation and desiring for the return of their former nation/homeland. Eg Singapore Chinese in Singapore, the Chinese in China, the Malays in Malaysia, etc.
….But most Gentiles hv the problem of lawlessness. When Gentiles become new Christians, they had little problem about accepting Jesus as their Christ/Savior but instead, they hv the grave problem of repenting of their former lawlessness. It is the complete opposite of the Jews’ situation, about 2,000 years ago, ie those Jews had little problem about lawlessness or obeying the laws/Word of God but they had the grave problem of rejecting Jesus.
That was why Jesus never had meals with Gentiles or preached to them, ie bc of their lawlessness or uncleanness. He commanded His 12 apostles to do likewise.
If most of the Jews had accepted Jesus as their Christ, there would hv been very, very few Gentiles being saved from hell.
I think lawlessness, like homosexuality or adultery, should not be tolerated or condoned in the Church/the House of God/the body of Christ or amongst the brethren.
….Lawlessness outside the Church or amongst the people of the world is according to “render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and render unto God what belongs to God”, ie Christians should not persecute or harm non-Christian homos or adulterers outside the Church.
….But if Churches do outreach to outsiders who are homos or adulterers or other kinds of sinners; or these sinners wanna join the Church and become Christians, they need to be gently told by matured Christians to repent of their sins/evil-deeds and they should be given reasonable time to repent and reform themselves.
As citizens of the country and also as christians, it is impt we know and understand the agenda. We had a glimpse of it in the AWARE saga some years ago,( thanks to a group of christians willing to stand up and speak up)and then the syllabus and some trainers in the schools were revamped. As christians we can be salt and light at different levels – national, society, corporate and peer/oikos level etc. For eg i have a friend who owns a company and listed some years ago and when the Lord convicted him of some of the business practices ( not illegal but morally not good and will not glorify the Lord eg entertaining at nightclubs etc etc)he just stopped it and say no to clients. Lost some business and hated by clients/colleagues but the Lord honours and the business thrive after some impact initially. We cannot in the name of love be tolerant of unrighteous practices and worse still to make it as a norm. Thats why the bible in John and 1 John says the world will hate christians. ( It doesnt mean we go out and antagonise people but when it comes to values that impact the young and families, we must stand up ) Just because there are automobile accidents, it does not mean we stop mfg cars. Just because we have christians who are bad testimonies or we can even have “fakes” does not mean we will stop preaching the gospel. In fact when there are counterfeits/fakes, that means you have something real and genuine. Have we come across fake or counterfeit S$3 bills ? In the current times, there is even a greater need for christians to rise up and stand up for righteousness. We should pray that we have more and more cabinet ministers who are disciples of Jesus .
The context in John (and Matthew and Mark and Luke) is that the world will hate believers because of WHO WE PREACH. So, please don’t use this to justify the world hating us because we try to force our alien moral values on them for its own sake, or try to thumb our collective noses at the debauched heathens who are clearly not worthy to breathe the same air as us Chrisitans and who Jesus will surely return to condemn to the hellfires of destruction for all eternity amen.
Hated for preaching the gospel = yes, I agree with you that this is promised to us and we should not get discouraged but in fact encouraged that we are doing the right thing.
Hated for doing silly anti-social stuff and antagonizing the public = well, I can only say that we “Christians” deserve the bad name we give the label.
What John says is correct – presume Jesus was the first “Christian” and because of He was perfect, the imperfect rulers could not accept Him, so we got rid of Him. Unfortunately following Him, many have tried to claim false holiness believing that they have hidden their blemishes. Wonder why the need to feel morally superior when it is all a sham.
Are you without SINS that you can judge your brother or sister. I am a sinner and continue to sin despite my best effort, hence my eternal gratitude for garce
What is the difference between deception and homosexuality, is one any less or more easily justifiable?
Are you perfect already?
1. I’ve always imagined life to be a race.
Philippians 3:14
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
2. It is vital be in the right race in the first place.
Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
3. Once we are in the right race, we are given a pair of 6 inch Christian Louboutin (our sinful desires) to run in.
Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
4. Once, we are in the right race, there’ll be all sorts of bump on the road to stumble us on top of the 6 inch of heels.
1 Corinthians 6:9,10
-Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
5. But since we are already in the right race, whenever we stumble, Lord Jesus will pull us up, encourage us and help us to run again.
Romans 8:1
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.
6. There is no sin that is too big for Jesus’s blood.
1 John 3:15
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Matthew 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
7. We all have to look at the finish line where Jesus is standing with the crown of life in his loving hands.
James 1:12
Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
Hebrews 12:2
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
8. Not at how fast or slow or how many times our neighbours fall
Matthew 7:1
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
9. Because you cannot see properly when you’re running forward, looking and lecturing sideways
Matthew 7:3-5
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
10. We should help our neighbour along instead
1 John 3:16
This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.
11. The governing bodies should put up and we should support the upheld signposts and banners along the narrow road to help lead us along and to warn us of the bumps and the holes up ahead,
‘Sexual immorality is a no-no.
).
Gay marriage is forbidden (and very strange
Adultery is sin.
Hatred is murder.
Looking lustfully at the opposite sex is adultery.
Lying is a sin.
etc., etc.
12. We should all be thankful for the signposts. It is not going to guarantee we are going to run without falling but at least we know what to look out for and which road to take (or not) at the intersection.
13. Let’s start running..:)
“I began to learn to wrestle with my homosexuality in community over many late-night cups of coffee and in tear-soaked, face-on-the-floor times of prayer with members of my church”
Lastly but most importantly, the Holy Spirit of God will live in us to lead and guide us into all things and empowers us to finish the race.
John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Lastly but most importantly, the Holy Spirit of God will live in us to lead and guide us into all things and empowers us to finish the race.
John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Galatians 5:22
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Lyn
@ lyn
1COR.6:9-11(NKJV) = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 AND SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
…….
Also, HEB.10:26-31 says that those who sin willfully or intentionally or purposely or unrepentantly, after receiving the knowledge of the truth(=laws/Word of God), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, not even the blood of Jesus, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation(of God) which will devour the adversaries(=enemies of God)
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
How would you categorize those homos who still remain in their homo-sin of having anal sex after professing to be Christians for 10 years.? Are they still in the Christian race of life.?
….I think these unrepentant homos hv disqualified themselves from the race by not repenting of their homo-sins after so many years. There is a limit to God’s patience and mercy.
….As we know, every marathon race or F1 car race has rules and regulations. Break any major rule and you are out of the race, eg a marathon-runner hitches a car-ride or uses performance-enhancing-drugs.(MATT.7:19-29)
This also applies to fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, thieves, drunkards, extortioners, revilers, etc…. in the Church who hv not repented of their same sins after 10 or many years, as in, “Such were some of you”, at 1COR.6:11.
The Corinthians were Greek Gentiles who lived in a part of Greece. B4 becoming Christians, most of them were sinners/law-breakers, which were common among the lawless Gentiles. After coming to the knowledge of the truth, most of them repented and stopped sinning or committing their former evil-deeds, eg homosexuality.
About the Christan race or journey, this race of life begins with the washing of hands and feet by the laws/Word of God(bc sins/evil-deeds are done by the hands and feet), sanctification and followed by justification(by faith) in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.(1COR,6:11) Hence:
1. At JOHN.3:5, the Lord Jesus stated that only those who hv been born-again of WATER and the Spirit shall inherit eternal life.
2. At JOHN.13:1-30, the Lord Jesus symbolically washed the feet of His apostles to point out the unclean(sinning) Judas.
3. At JOHN.15:3, the Lord Jesus stated that His apostles were clean bc of the word which He had spoken to them.
4. At JOHN.6:63, the Lord Jesus told His apostles that it is the Spirit who gives (eternal)life, the words that He had spoken to them are Spirit, and His words are life.
5. At HEB.4:12, Paul stated that the Word of God is living and powerful,….
6. At EPH.6:17, Paul stated that the sword of the Spirit is the Word of God.
It seems, to the Pentecostals/Charismatics, the laws, commandments and Word of God/Jesus is not the sword of the Spirit. Rather, their spiritual life seems not to be based on the washing by the Word of God. Their spiritual experiences can even go against the Word of God, eg lawlessness and chaos.
Can a practicing homo inherit the kingdom of God.? Seems like some Pentecostals/Charismatics think the answer is yes, esp when they condone and tolerate unrepentant homosexuality in their Church, in the name of loving every Tom, Dick and Harry or every Ah Kow, Ah Kua and Ah-mad.
Jesus had commanded His apostles to love one another.(JOHN.15:12, cf: 1JOHN.2:10) This is the same as “love your neighbor as yourself” at MATT.22:39 which Jesus had quoted from LEV.19:18. Remember that during Moses time, the Jews’ neighbors were all fellow Jews, ie they had no Gentile neighbors.
….Hence, now, this commandment can be defined and applied as to love the brothers-in-Christ/sisters-in-Christ in the Church. This commandment of Jesus does not apply for those outside the Church.
….Christians may do outreach to them with compassion, kindness, patience and cordiality. I don’t think Christians should love them like a brother-in-Christ/sister-in-Christ.
At ROM.12:20, loving your enemies is in the context of not avenging themselves against religious persecution by the powerful Jewish religious authorities and Roman emperors but letting God avenge on their behalf:
= 20 Therefore,
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”[a]
….Footnotes: [a] PROVERBS.25:21, 22
This was how God punished the greedy Western colonizers, ie by sending them WW1 and WW2. These were wars over colonies, like secret society turf-wars.
If the Jews could obey all the laws of Moses and master their inborn sinful desire that tempted them to commit sins/evil-deeds, as had been proven by the rich young ruler at MATT.19:16-26 and by the beggar Lazarus at LUKE.16:19-31, there is no reason why a matured Gentile Christian could not accomplish the same.
….It is a cop-out for such mature Christians to blame their sinful desires or unwarranted fears or weakness when they willfully commit sins.(cf: MATT.5:20) They hv the Word/HS to help them, to convict them of sin and to avoid sin/evil-deed.
Like they say, “Scare-crows may fly around your head, but do not let them build nests on your head.”
@NPc
“…..Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God….”
After all the “nors”…..who else could be left to become Christian? Am sure that habits are extremely hard to change even one, let alone a multitude of them. There is a truism, “the mind is willing but the flesh is weak.” You
“…….who still remain in their homo-sin of having anal sex after professing to be Christians for 10 years….” Questions…. does this include heterosexuals who have occasional homosexual relationships or heterosexuals that indulge in anal sex also? What about those that indulge for less than 10 years, say 9.95 years, not sure if you meant calendar years or 365day years – methinks there will be issue trying to be legally precise with no room for subjective interpretation by anybody – suggest to you that this cannot be done. Seems to me your cutoffs are arbitrary at best and subjective at worse.
Never mind anybody else of whatever beliefs or religious persuasion – are you yourself SIN free? I am not and have not met anyone in my fairly extensive travels around the globe – you would be the very first if you answered in the affirmative. It would be awesome!
“….At ROM.12:20, loving your enemies is in the context of not avenging themselves against religious persecution by the powerful Jewish religious authorities and Roman emperors….” assume from your statement, this was true during the Roman Empire era only – it is a contemporaneous truth. Presume this would invalidate the use of the Bible as a guide for ethics and morals in our 21st century society.
I have a personal belief, waiting to be proven wrong by someone like yourself….that is “All living “Christians” are SINNERS, even those that seem to “know” the Bible extremely well attend Church XXtimes per week and prays XXtimes per day everyday!” You may also want to include all the “rabbi, pastor, apostles, deacons, bishops, archbishops, cardinals, pope, patriarchs etc etc….”
Look forward to be enlightened about myt less than perfect brother and sister whom God has not condemned yet, but some want to.
“Scare-crows (sic) may fly around your head, but do not let them build nests on your head.”
Easy for you to say, but what about those born without hands?
@ Ben says:
26/03/2013 at 4:26 pm
When those born without hands are disturbed by scary-crows flying around their heads and trying to build nests on their heads, they can always shake their head vigorously or hide inside their houses or wear the crash-helmet of salvation, to stop the crows from successfully building their nests.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
Ben,…. Ben,….;
The saying, “Scary-crows may fly around your head, but do not let them build nests on your head”, is an analogy or a parable.
….It means to resist the temptations of the devil and not commit sins/evil-deeds, eg MATT.4:1-11. Scary-crows symbolize the tempting-thoughts, fearful-thoughts or other evil-thoughts that come from Satan. When people entertain these evil-thoughts, these thoughts will bear fruit and become evil-deeds/sins, ie they will go and commit sins/evil-deeds.
….Evil-hearts/flesh –> evil-thoughts –> evil-deeds/sins.
Example; hateful and angry thoughts may lead to verbal abuse, physical assaults or murder, against others or against self(=suicide).
It is the same as Paul saying at EPH.6:16, “above all, taking the shield of faith with which to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one”. Paul is not saying that Satan, literally, shoots lit-arrows at people, like in period-Chinese kingdom war movies. He shoots evil-thoughts at people.
Hence, at JOHN.8:44, the Lord Jesus told the Pharisees, “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. ….”, ie they wanted to murder Jesus for being a heretic and blasphemer of Judaism.
People cannot stop these evil-thoughts or their inborn sinful desires/fears, but they can stop themselves from committing evil-deeds/sins. How.? For Jews and Christians, it is by obeying the laws/Word of God. This will result in a good and long life on earth. Since Christians also believe in Jesus, they will also go to heaven after they die.
People cannot go to heaven by just obeying the laws/Word of God but rejecting Jesus, eg the Jews.
….Similarly, people will most probably not be going to heaven by just believing in Jesus but keep on willfully sinning or breaking or rejecting the laws/Word of God, eg formerly lawless Gentile Christians who live on Radical Grace and keep on being lawless – they will most probably be afflicted by earthly calamities causing them to curse God and die, like the wife of Job.
Standing up for certain values or standing up agst certain behaviour is not making judgement (condemning a person).There is no neutrality on moral issues. Please try and understand the agenda. The pastors of the city have engaged the authorities well in this area and we should thank God for them and continue to pray for the Lord’s wisdom and favour upon them. We should always question but dont allow cynicism and skeptcism to become stumbling blocks .
@justthinking
“…………standing up agst certain behavior is not making judgement (condemning a person)?”….Really?
Agree with your above perspective if you are nonchalant, lackadaisical, ambivalent or best of all completely clueless with no opinion…..then your statement would be essentially “true” – if you have a “alternative position,” then you will be seeking to impose a product of your personal belief system on a public that may not share your sentiments.
Is this is also an Agenda of some extreme “Christian Homophobic group?” – being demonized and labelled is no fun, so we should refrain from doing this to others? Can a homophobe, non humanist ever profess to be “Christian” – is this being a credible “light and salt?”
@JT, NPc
My scientific background makes me curious – how does one would go about defining a homosexual?
Person who is attracted to another of the same sex?
Even to define what prototypical sex might be is highly problematic – Do we use sex hormone serum levels, external genitalia anatomy similarity, psychological test results, chromosomal complement maps, RFLP patterns similarity – guess you guys are aware that in biology, we have a gaussian distribution for any objective measurement we can to make from the smallest to the largest attributes.
Do we use 1,2 or 3 standard deviations as a inclusion or exclusion limit hierarchical or do we cluster based on coefficient of similarity or deviation in a density cloud spherical model.
The point of this long winded ambiguity that if we were to attempt practice eugenics with our religious beliefs and had to “cull” deviants from our population, then we need to define what a typical aberrant would look like. Just try to imagine what a chief Inquisitor with the power of life or death on homosexuals would do.
Fact is we all have “Agendas” – fact is any antihumanist agenda is down right dangerous to the continued existence of the human race. We already have the means to destroy the world planet, do we have the wisdom to leave a legacy for our childrens’ children that is worth inheriting?
As mentioned, the knowledge and understanding of the agenda is in the interest of the citizens of the country, forget about christians, since christians cant even agree on how to stand up for the right values and for fear of being judgemental( pointless to dwell on this) best will be “quiet” citizens and stay home and mind your biz. But yet we are suppose to share the gospel which is truly exclusive in Jesus words eg whoever belives in him is not condemned but whoever does not believe stands condemned…, whoever believes in the Son has eternal life but whosoever rejcts the Son will not see life.., etc etc. There are many non christians esp those with families who appreciate the raising of the agenda with the govt as they understand this is not about religious issues. I am therefore very surprised that some christians are finding an issue with this and using terms like imposing alien moral values on others. Many of the non christians i talked to understand and acknowledged how this agenda has been pursued to the point of true moral decadence in some of the countries in the west breaking down traditional marriages etc. Please find out more about the agenda and you will understand. I truly thank the Lord for the pastors of the city who are willing to step up and tackle tough issues, not easy as one can see. It is always easier to be people pleasers. From what i see and my own experience it seems the tougher group to deal with is the family of God. Just remember a few key premises. We are all sexual beings and sexuality is created by God. God made us male and female. Homosexuals are not a class of people and neither are heterosexuals. We are born males and females.
I did read Pastor Lawrence Khong’s letter addressing this issue. And I’m sure it describes the “agenda” adequately, no? So I think we are indeed talking about the same thing.
Anyway, my point is this: How would you feel if Muslims rose up as a group and tried to impose a law that states that every man can have 3-4 wives? Or a law that every thief would have their hands cut off? Or a law for adulterers to be stoned? Or a law that forces every woman to be veiled and covered from head to toe?
Perhaps you can even agree with one of these laws, but think of the sizable amount of people that don’t agree. How would they feel when a “religious” group of people rose up en masse and tried to force their values on them? Do you think this encourages mutual respect and tolerance, or does this fuel an us-vs-them mentality? If Christians were to do this, do you think this paves the way for the Good News to be readily received? Or does this hinder it? Think of what it does to the good name of the group in question, and how it ultimately reflects upon the God that they serve.
Let’s also be fair. If we do not want Muslims to force their values, how come we can have different standards for Christians? Sorry, but I don’t think having a portion of society agree with us on some of our values is a good excuse, simply because there are always others who don’t.
Still, I must qualify that if one wants to champion a certain cause, please do it out of your own personal capacity. Please don’t use the “Christian” label implicity or explicity to garner more support and hinder those of us who are more concerned with preaching the good news, simply because like you said “we don’t all agree”.
I hope this is some food for thought.
Maybe God has a great sense of humor – is this pastor who practices the deceptive art of illusions?
You need to be a master of deception to be able to teach the truth – it is oxymoronic!
“Real Christians’ homophobic message” is we need to continue and jail these sexual deviants so we can protect the morals of this great society, however prostitution, alcoholic binge drinking, adultery, oral or anal sex (ok for heterosexuals), gambling, smoking and whatever else that ihas not been criminalized.
You need to know also that your view of “we are born males and females” is very black and white. Like it or not, that is simply not how it works in real life.
As Journeyman has alluded to, there is also evidence that homosexual behavior is not just a nurture thing, but also a nature thing. Meaning, some of us are genetically predisposed to be being homosexuals, just like how some of us are genetically predisposed to certain abilities, behaviors and illnesses. Imagining that some people are homosexuals by sheer choice, or that we belong to a certain sexual classification with no variation in between, is just a very very naive thing to assume. I only have 1 word for you: Hermaphrodites. How would you classify them??
Does this make homosexuality any less sinful? No! This is the reality of living in a fallen world, where everything is NEVER ideal.
Let’s have some empathy for those who had a worse hand than us in the genetic lottery draw of life. We are blessed to be who we are only by our Lord’s grace.
@JT
Perhaps we are ready to condemn these other “abnormal” people who were considered abominable by ancient societies and some primitive ones even in the 21st Century. There are many more such anomalies but it does not mean they are less deserving of God’s company or grace, since any SIN is abominable to God, yet He has sacrificed His Son and extended grace to anybody who seeks and wants it.
Sex Chromosomal Anomalies
1) XXY, XXYY, XXXY (nominally male) Klinefelter syndrome – sterility, small testicles, breast enlargement
2) XYY (super male) XYY syndrome - normal external male traits
3) XO (female) Turner syndrome – sex organs don’t mature at adolescence, sterility, short stature
4) XXX (female) Trisomy X – tall stature, learning disabilities, limited fertility
@NPc
Just an observation about the moniker you use – presume it best describes your “religious beliefs.”
My cursory understanding is that a Pentecostalists is somebody who believes in a direct relationship with God through a baptism by the Holy Spirit – does this mean you do not believe in this perspective?
Is this a correct analysis and deduction?
Delighted if you would care to clarify as my rational model construct of you will make a lot more sense of your many posting.
Ps Khong did not even quote a single bible verse addressing the issue. As many discerning non christians realise, the agenda is not a religious issue. That’s why PM spoke on it extensively a couple of years ago. If you think this is imposing a religious moral/lawm then it means you do not understand the agenda.Please accept my apology first,I dont mean to be rude. But not all of us understand the agenda until we learn more about it and there is nothing wrong with that cos we dont deal with these issues every other day.But when there is a serious attempt to push a agenda that impact the foundation of families ultimately, we as citizens and more so as christians must be bold enough to stand up. Forget about christians if that offends you altho the bible is black and white on sexuality. The source of homosexual desires has not been determined. But even if there is a genetic component ( although one wonders how it is passed on) those desires dont excuse behaviour. An orientation towars homosexuality doesnt make the behaviour morally right anymore than an orientation toward violence makes gay bashing morally right. This is just one argument agst so called born dispositions and therefore we should “normalise” the behaviour which is one of the agenda. Will not dwell on this as officially there is still a gag order from AG. A fanatstic must read book “Mind The Gap” by Dr Li Ann Thio addresses many of the issues. Its a clarion call to engage in the public square.It will answer many of our questions which cant be addressed on th blog. The theme is really Contending for Righteousness in an Age Of Lawlessness. ” Surveying the signs of the times, Prof Thio discerns an increasingly hostile secular culture that shouts down those who believe in objective Right and Wrong. Beyond wringing hands over whether it is still possible to have a shared vision of what constitutes Common Good where the cult of the atomized individual reigns, she asks how the professing Christian will respond.. A prophetic challenge to those who are lukewarm in their Faith “. Piero A. Tozzi The objective of this blog is to share views and this is a great book where no words are minced.
Thank you for your tactful reply, Justthinking.
Don’t get me wrong. Of course I personally support the idea of marriage between 1 man and woman and I am thoroughly against the idea of marriage between couples of the same sex and so on. In fact, I also find it extremely repulsive and would much rather have laws that prohibit such unions.
I also have nothing but good intentions towards people in general that fight for good political causes. So I think we are all on the same page here.
What I am wary about are Christians fighting for such secular political causes as a group, for the reasons I have already stated.
While Pastor Khong may even have made his stand in a personal capacity (without quoting bible verses as you said), as a well-known Christian leader he should have been aware that the public will inevitably associate his actions with the Christian community at large. Agree?
Again, he may have good intentions, but are they also wise ones in the larger and more important context of paving the way for the gospel? I’ll leave that for you to decide.
I’ll also remind you that Jesus in His entire ministry here on earth completely refused to be drawn in to political matters. He skillfully deflected questions about taxes to Caesar, and refused to be involved in the wishes of the Jewish people to rise up against Roman oppression.
Please don’t forget also that Roman civil laws are different and people participated in many many un-kosher things that were absolutely against Jewish thinking. If the “homosexual agenda” bothers us, how do you think the Jewish people of the day felt??
But fighting for political causes was just not His priority. Instead He was only concerned with saving people and preaching the good news. Does this illustrate my point more clearly?
You said: “But even if there is a genetic component ( although one wonders how it is passed on) those desires dont excuse behaviour. An orientation towars homosexuality doesnt make the behaviour morally right anymore than an orientation toward violence makes gay bashing morally right.”
Of course!
But like I said, this is the reality of a fallen world, where there are people born with violent dispositions, or homosexual/bisexual preferences, or sociopathic tendencies or both male and female reproductive organs, or even born into broken families. Just like how some people are given a generous and meek disposition, and how others are gentle and kind, and how even others are born into rich and privileged backgrounds. Opposite ends of the same spectrum.
Even our former prime minister Lee Kuan Yew has had to recant his stance on homosexuals, because he has come to realize that there is evidence for genetic factors for such behavior!
Read CS Lewis “Mere Christianity”. He likens our bodies/genetic makeup to vehicles. If one is given a lousy vehicle prone to breakdown and biased steering, while another is given a good vehicle with precision control and reliabilty, how can one judge that the other is a better driver??
This is the basis of why only God can rightfully give judgement, and that we should empathize with those with lousy vehicles and realize the importance of preaching the gospel to them. Only Jesus and Jesus only can truly transform them.
@ Ben says:
27/03/2013 at 11:49 am
Quoting: “……. there are people born with violent dispositions, or homosexual/bisexual preferences, or sociopathic tendencies….”
Seems like you hv rejected what the Word of God says about people being transformed into homosexuals by God, for their sin of knowingly and purposely rejecting God, ie:
ROMANS.1:18-32(NKJV) =
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
It is really not about Biblical verses – the objection is using a religious pulpit to make a statement on a contentious societal civic issue. If Lawrence Khong spoke as a private citizen, there will be no fuss.
Regarding Dr Thio Li Ann….not all share your enthusiasm….NYU Law School controversy(Wiki..)
Thio was to be a visiting human rights professor at New York University School of Law in the fall of 2009 until she withdrew her acceptance in July 2009.[27][28] Her appointment prompted many to call for condemnation of her “anti-gay hate speech” before Parliament.[18] The University’s gay and lesbian law student group, NYU OUTLaw, released a statement calling for the condemnation.[29][30][31]
NYU Law School’s Dean Richard Revesz issued a memorandum stating “the Law School categorically rejects the point of view expressed in Professor Thio’s speech, as evidenced by our early and longstanding commitment to end discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.”[32] Students at NYU Law School have issued statements as well.
Thio then sent an 18-point defense memo to the entire NYU Law faculty.[30] On 22 July 2009, she informed the school of her withdrawal from the appointment, citing hostility by its community towards her views and low enrollment.[28][31] It was reported that only 9 students applied for her course on Human Rights and 5 for her another course on Constitutionalism.[33]
Just to make sure everybody is on the same page……Apostle Lawrence Khong’s speech in honor of ESM Goh……..
“Mr Goh, it’s my pleasure to welcome you once again to Faith Community Baptist Church. The last time we met was during the Marine Parade light up.
We are so honoured by your visit again this morning.
I would like to take this opportunity to share with you my heart and the heartbeat of the people in this church, as well as committee pastors of LoveSingapore which is an informal, relational network of some 100 churches with a membership of at least 40,000 Christians.
One, we believe that the building of Singapore is an exciting enterprise.
Two, we feel passionately that Singapore is a place worth fighting for!
Three, we want to create a Singapore we are all proud of.
Sir, we are convinced that there’s no better starting point for this noble endeavor than the Family.
Therefore, we are committed as a church to build strong families in Singapore.
We affirm that the family unit comprises a man as Father, a woman as Mother, and Children. This is the basic building block of society, a value foundational for a secure future, a premise fundamental to nation-building.
We see a looming threat to this basic building block by homosexual activists seeking to repeal Section 377A of the Penal Code.
Examples from around the world have shown that the repeal of similar laws have led to negative social changes, especially the breakdown of the family as a basic building block and foundation of the society. It takes away the rights of parents over what their children are taught in schools, especially sex education. It attacks religious freedom and eventually denies free speech to those who, because of their moral convictions, uphold a different view from that championed by increasingly aggressive homosexual activists.
We love our nation. We sincerely pray for and look to the Government to provide moral leadership in preserving this basic building block and foundation of our society. And with that, to robustly protect our constitutional rights to free speech and religious liberty; so as to ensure that social cohesion and religious harmony are maintained in Singapore.”
Yes its impt we are on the same page. The issue i reiterate is not about homosexuals but about the homosexual agenda. This is a very impt distinction and I believe Ps Khong started with this. I dont need to defend him as he is completely frank and transparent on FB and have answered many of the issues raised including religion and the public square. Anyway this is issue is not about him but i do appreciate and thank God for the pastors of the city for standing up for the country’s moral values. As a side note, if we had more christians in the cabinet we could have avoided the casino. The consequences of the agenda are best seen in the US where in some states the teachers avoid calling the children boys and girls but just children as they maybe sued for influencing the kid on his /her choice of sexual orientation. Was told a couple of churches in Canada were sued for not willing to conduct a gay marriage. Personally i feel US is one of the best egs where “freedom’ has led to many disastrous results in the area of family and even in the financial sector. When the country opens 1 door, the next will be attacked and ultimately …. Anecdotally, the response from non christians esp those with families is very positive, they understand esp after listening. I also believe the Aware saga a few years ago has raised the level of awareness in this area when parents were shocked at what has infiltrated into schools. It just happened (?) that the group who raised this was a group of christians but whatever, parents appreciated very much and changes were made. The point i raised on behavioural orientation is just to highlight the fallacy of the argument some use to justify homosexulaity and to normalise the behaviour. Like i said it has not been proven medically so one cant use this argument. In fact others have argued that the testimony of ex-gays/LGBTs contradicts the notion that one is born. I cant be a ex chinese or ex indian. Look at Sy Rogers ministry and on the homefront COOS. Mind The Gap was given to me some years ago. Heavy reading initially but realised its solid food ( Hebrews 5&6). Have a open mind , read it. Thanks for info on Dr Thio, true warrior for Christ and willing to stand up. No neutrality on moral issues. Yes down the road, the church shoud teach us more on the lies and doctrinal perversions related to this issue.
Another commentary says : ….. It challenges , exhorts and insists that it is the responsibility of every christian to reclaim the intellectual and spiritual ground ceded in each of our lives to the pseudo-cultural wars that have ensnared an entire generation, seducing us into believing that nothing painful, difficult or sacrificial can or should be associated with the Good News of God’s love…. Prof Ruth Okediji, University of Minnesota Law School, USA.
“…. Her book challenges contemporary christians to draw on the resources of the Bible as God’s Word and live out their disciplship in the world…..she drwas deeply from the Binle and relates biblical truth to the challenges we all face today with careful thought and spiritual energy… Rev Dr V Samuel, Director Emeritus, Oxford UK.
As mentioned, I dont know her its a book given by a friend but its a gem and will answer and challenge many of the issues discussed.
Its not about using a religious pulpit. The govt engages the different religious groups in all these issues including for eg casino issue.The pastors of the city have engaged with the authorities well and we must always pray for the wisdom of the Lord and His favor to be upon them. The world’s path is always the path of least resistance. Someone wrote earlier about right race and right place and narrow is the gate.
Originally it contained this paragraph that was deleted 3 days after the posting:
“”We must sound the trumpet because the church must get herself into battle footing, and be battle-ready. The first salvo was fired by the Senior Pastor of FCBC this week on the LGBT issue and the churches are beginning to mobilise themselves not just for this battle, but for the many battles ahead of us. The LGBT bloc will of course be outraged, but that is to be expected. We must make a stand for righteousness in this nation. This war is winnable and the church will arise victorious. We are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus who loved us. Be ready for a sharp polarising of our society over the gay and lesbian issue and when it happens, you better make sure you know which side you are on. Grace to all of you.” – Pastor Yang Tuck Yoong
justified crusaders or divisive disruptors of tranquility?
For me, the greatest disappointment is finding a great numbers of believers are of the fire and brimstone variety despite all the profession of Grace and Love. Beyond the criminality of use of force for sex, exploitation of the young or mentally challenged (below legal competence), SEX should and must remain a strictly private matter. Usually sexual orientation and preference is only known to the sex partners themselves. The world only finds out when there is a confession by these persons or it has been done in a public space or in a manner that is visible to the general public. I have no doubt that humans are capable of many more acts of depravity and barbarity beyond consensual sex that may not be everybody’s’ idea of morality or “normal” sex copulation. Believe some religious rituals are even more gruesome and masochistic, however we accept them in a secular society as “right to religious practice.”
Regarding your statement on “homosexual agenda,” – this wud be perpetrated by “friends and relatives and homosexuals themselves” – believe the rest would be lukewarm. Similarly, morality and LBGT sex and lifestyle would be offensive to “fundamentalist” christians. Still confused, what you are objecting to – sodomy between the same sex or the act of sodomy itself or both? Maybe we sud even be suspcious of people with a majority of same sex friends also?
The coming Momentum Conference by the Love Spore churches will be focusing on the family and the church of Spore will also be taught on the LGBT issues, what’s happening around the world and also testimonies by churches in other countries who will share their experiences.Worth attending for some “solid food”.
A quote from Ann Rice ………..
In the name of Christ, I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian.