Focus on God’s agenda for the gays

The church in Singapore could do herself much good by reorienting her focus on God’s agenda for the gays, instead of the publicly perceived homophobia of the church and its fear of the gays’ agenda for the world. The gays may have an agenda, but so does God, and God’s agenda and love plan for the gays and the world is what will prevail. The church can ask, “Lord, how can we partner with You in what You are doing among the gays, and how can we  join You in Your work”?  One thing this would involve is the church seeking to understand and inculcate compassion and develop church ministry and care of gay inclined believers. It will take the church out of a war footing into a posture of peacemaking, towels and basins. It will mean the church  identifying with the marginalized, taking risks, and serving with humility.

I was reading a friend’s review of a book titled, ‘Washed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality’ by Wesley Hill, who is Assistant Professor of Biblical Studies at Trinity School for Ministry. Sze Zeng summarized three lessons he picked up. They helped me see the struggles and loneliness of believers who experience same sex attraction. It helped me feel the plight and pain of brothers and sisters who often endure it all in anonymity. I have quoted two of his lessons. For the third lesson, please read his full blogpost.

Lesson 1: Same-sex attraction is real—the need to struggle with it.

There are those among us who are really and genuinely feel attracted to people of the same gender. For this reason, many have tried to find a connection between same-sex attraction and their childhood. Some even try to link sexuality to gene. Hence the whole debate between ‘nature versus nurture’. Accordingly, there are ‘therapies’ designed to help people to change their sexuality.

The author cuts through this impasse debate by talking about his own personal discovery of his homosexual orientation. He was brought up in a non-abusive childhood and had a fairly good upbringing. It was during high school years that he sensed a “steady, strong, unremitting, exclusive sexual attraction to persons of the same sex” (p.13). The unchangeable sexual desire for homosexual relationship is real to him and to those who experience it. Since then his life is marked by fear, persistent loneliness and inner conflict.

Hill asked a probing question, which I think many homosexual Christians are asking as well, “Can we gay and lesbian Christians who experience no change in our homoerotic desires live in the joyful assurance that our lives are satisfying to God? Can we who remain homosexually inclined actually please God?” (p.135).

To Hill, the answer depends on our understanding of homosexuality: What do the Scripture and Church tradition say? Hill is clear that same-sex attraction is “one of the myriad tragic consequences of living in a fallen world stalked by the specters of sin and death” (p.32). With full conviction and tireless struggle, Hill writes, “I abstain from homosexual behaviour because of the power of that scriptural story” (p.61), and such endurance is a “daily dying” (p.71). As Hill further affirms, “I am waiting for the day when I will receive the divine accolade, […] “Well done, good and faithful servant” (p.150). Hill’s spiritual persistence is exemplary for all Christians in dealing with our own temptation, be it on sexuality or otherwise.

Lesson 2: Homosexuality comes with unbearable loneliness—the necessity of a trustworthy and supportive community within the church.

The loneliness experienced by those with homosexual inclination is not easily understood by heterosexuals. Gay Christians cannot relate to their heterosexual peers’ interest in the opposite gender. They have to be careful not to jeopardize their friendship by developing romantic interest with friends of the same gender. They are afraid that they will be rejected and discriminated when their sexuality is known by their family, friends, and church-mates. They have to constantly struggle against the desire of entering into a monogamous homosexual relationship, especially in society where homosexual practice is widely accepted and legally protected (e.g. civil partnership and same-sex ‘marriage’). On top of these, they have to face negligence in various degrees by their heterosexual friends who eventually get married and start their own family. To Hill, loneliness is the “defining struggle” of his life (p.92) that makes him feels “painfully contradictory” (p.115).

“What I wish,” as Hill once said to his pastor, “is that I could feel the church to be a safe place” (p.42). “The remedy for loneliness—if there is such a thing this side of God’s future—is to learn, over and over again, to do this: to feel God’s keeping presence embodied in the human members of the community of faith, the church” (p.113). Writing from Hill’s own experience with his church, “I began to learn to wrestle with my homosexuality in community over many late-night cups of coffee and in tear-soaked, face-on-the-floor times of prayer with members of my church” (p.48, italics original) Are we, as part of the local churches, willing to learn to provide the kind of safe space for our brothers and sisters in Christ to wrestle with their same-sex attraction?

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Comments

  • Dear blogpastor,personally would prefer to avoid terms like gay christian, lesbian christian, alcoholic christian, drug addict christian, christian atheist ( all oxymorons ?) as in Christ we are a new creation, although we may still be struggling with sins like gambling, drugs, heterosexual and homosexual sins. Thank God for the Church in Spore to rise up and speak up against the homosexual agenda esp with regards to section 377a etc.Yes the church needs to learn to love the LGBTs just like we do for drug addicts or anyone struggling with sins but must stand up against the agenda.

      • Think the church should stick to spiritual affairs and the social morality of its own members – secular affairs should be left to politicians and the citizenry. Society will be reflection of these constituents. When we mix religion and civil society we set up unnecessary friction points that will eventually rob us of tranquility and peace that we all need for living a life abundant (whatever each of us perceive that to be) – we need to accept we are all different and each of us are oblivious to our idiosyncratic craziness because it is always the other guy’s fault, never our own.

        Let those who are without sin cast the first stone – let us not make God responsible for our own failings. If we cannot accept others, why should we expected anything. Chaos theory state that a butterfly flutter can set off a massive superstorm, will a intolerant act or belligerent statement do any less?

        • I agree also that church and political affairs should be kept separate, for the sake of peace with the rest of society.

          That is not to say that we approve of every decision made, but that our focus on earth should be with our own relationship with God. I think the fact that Jesus was entirely unconcerned about political matters in His entire ministry here on earth should raise some red flags for us.

    • Yes, Wendy, these things should not be discussed as issues, abstactions, principles or strategies but as real people with faces and tears and pain and anger.

  • Quoting from the article: “There are those among us who are really and genuinely feel attracted to people of the same gender. For this reason, many have tried to find a connection between same-sex attraction and their childhood. Some even try to link sexuality to gene. Hence the whole debate between ‘nature versus nurture’. Accordingly, there are ‘therapies’ designed to help people to change their sexuality.”

    This kind of rationalization by humans for their sins/evil-deeds can also be applied to people who feel attracted(sexually) to children, their sisters/mothers/daughters/etc, their dogs/cows/camels/goats/etc, to rape others, etc.

    What does the Word of God say about homos.? Read ROMANS.1 and LEV.18:22, etc.
    …….Bc these people purposely rejected the rule of God, even though they were aware of the existence of God after observing the wonderful world of nature – so, God also purposely rejected them as heteros and transformed them into homos.
    ….Hence, if homos repent and accept the “burdensome” rule of God, God will convert them back into normal heteros and may also save them.

    Even though the secular laws of Singapore allow adultery, the laws/Word of God do not.(REV.22:15, 1COR.6:9-11, GAL.5:16-23) If adulterers do not repent and stop adulterating, they will be condemned by God to hell after they die. There is no such thing as an adulterer believer, viz-a-viz a gay believer or lesbian believer or pedophile believer or incestuous believer. It is an oxy-moron, ie a true believer, when confronted with their sin/evil-deed, will repent and not continue in sin.(1JOHN.3:8, 1COR.5:1-5, HEB.10:26-31)
    ….Homosexuality is similarly allowed by the secular laws of Singapore. The laws/Word of God do not.
    ….Homos and adulterers need to repent of their sin/evil-deed. This also applies to idolators, thieves, liars, sorcerers(dabbling in the occult), etc.

    Churches that tolerate and condone unrepentant homos are not true Churches, esp those that have gay bishops and pastors. Maybe, these false Churches want to hv more members and tithes by giving up their principles and integrity. They r more like politicians who pander for votes by selling their soul.

    I think God will give homos some time to repent but stubborn and unrepentant homos will be rejected by God and His heaven.
    ….Similarly, newly converted Gentile Christians r given time by God to transform their former lawless Gentile lives into law-abiding ones. They are not to use their liberty from Moses Law(exemptions given at ACTS.15:29) to remain forever in their former Gentile lawlessness. Lawlessness/sins/evil-deeds will result in curses/punishments from God or His agents = afflicted by calamities. Unrepentant/untransformed new GC run the risk of cursing God and die while suffering such calamities(eg cancer), eg the wife of Job.
    ….Example: Chinese tradition values sons more than daughters bc of the system of surnames. So, many Chinese families sin(do evil) against their daughters by spoiling their sons and mistreating their daughters or desiring to hv sons(instead of daughters). The people chosen by God, the Jews, did not hv surnames, eg Joshua, son of Nun(similar to Muslim names). So, the Jews did not hv this tendency to sin against their daughters.

    P S – Recently, a Roman Catholic cardinal from South Africa opined that pedophilia is a mental illness caused by childhood sexual abuse and not a crime that should be punished. I think his rationalization serves to justify pedo-priests and the Roman Catholic Church’s decades of cover-up.
    ….I think the root cause of the prevalence of pedo-priests is the RCC’s ban on marriage for priests and the use of boys in their lithurgy, mass and ceremonies.

    • I don’t think Blogpastor or anybody else is saying that homosexuality is not a sin, but rather that we should understand that these people really struggle with it, just like we also struggle with our own secret weaknesses whether we like to admit it or not. I bet everyone here is a chief sinner – some might be proud bigots or indulge in pornography or habitual liars etc.

      We all fall short of God’s justice and are saved solely by His mercy, so I think the prejudiced targeting of homosexuals by Christians today is just stinking self-righteous hypocrisy. We should remember to remove the plank from our own eye instead.

      • @ Ben …….

        1TIM.1:5-17(NKJV) = 5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

        8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

        [Glory to God for His Grace]
        12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

        14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am CHIEF.

        16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

        17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
        _ _ _ _ _ _ _

        Paul was an example of a chief-sinner, ie when he(as Saul) was still a Pharisee(=lawyer), he had arrested many Christians and sent them for execution by the Roman rulers.

        When Jesus/HS miraculously confronted him about his great sin, he repented and stopped all his evil actions against the Christians.
        ….Even though he had received the grace of God, converted to Christianity and became the apostle to the Gentiles, Jesus still had to punish him with much earthly sufferings for his previous great sins/evil-deeds. Paul experienced much suffering and deprivation during his ministry, for the sake of Jesus and His gospel.(ACTS.9:4-16)

        I think, presently, such a miraculous conversion that had produced an exceptional apostle, is quite rare, as to be non-existent.

        There is a big difference in the conduct of sincere sinners, b4 and after they come to the knowledge of the truth or convicted of their sins and inborn sinful desires.
        ….True believers are usually sinners who had repented of their former sins/evil-deeds and stopped repeating them. Those sinners who remain in their sins/evil-deeds, even after receiving the knowledge of the truth, hv actually rejected God and His Word/laws/commandments.

        Unrepentant homo-“believers” are not true believers. Churches that condone and tolerate homosexuality in the Church are not true Churches.(REV.2:12-26 = Churches of Pergamum and Thyatira)

  • I think the Love Singapore churches have espounded on the difference between homosexuals and the homosexual agenda. Not to mention Christians but just as citizens of the country we should know and understand their agenda. Praise God that he is using the church and Christians to rise up and fight for the right morals and values to be established for Songapore. We are called to be the salt and light of the world. But please try and understand the agenda and you will stand up for the country as citizens and we are not even bringing in the religious factor

    • If a pastors makes the representation on behalf of a church organization in the political sphere, this sets up many future friction points with other non Christian religious organizations who may feel equally justified – intolerance and zealots are not great attributes for a gracious society.

      We can only become the “light and salt” of the earth when we have a higher level of personal and collective standards of integrity, ethics and behavior that exudes grace and love.

      Is there any point to loud professions when the (Christian) our own social indicators are not metrically different from the general public. (divorce, abortion, crime, poverty etc………)

      Let’s us put our own houses in order before we try to define the standards of others. Intolerance is a short
      distance from hatred.

      As a simple minded believer, always thought the essence of the Bible could be summarized a simple statements – love God with all your being and love your neighbor as you would yourself……..if we cannot even do this, is there any point in fancy assembly and majestic rituals?

      • @ Journeyman …….

        MATTHEW.22:34-40(NIV)

        The Greatest Commandment

        34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

        37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

        39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]

        40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

        Footnotes:
        [a] MATT.22:37/DEUT.6:5, [b] MATT.22:39/LEV.19:18
        _ _ _ _ _ _ _

        MARK.11:15-19(KJV)

        15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;

        16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.

        17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

        18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.

        19 And when evening was come, he went out of the city.
        _ _ _ _ _ _ _

        1CORINTHIANS.5:1-13(KJV)

        5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

        2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

        3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

        4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

        5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

        6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

        7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

        8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

        9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

        10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

        11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

        12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

        13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
        _ _ _ _ _ _ _

        I think, to really love God first(cf: to love their neighbor next), Christians need to be aware of how their conduct in the House of God/Church affects the feelings of God/JC/HS.
        …….How are certain Christians loving God by appointing unrepentant, still-practicing, sinning homosexuals to positions of leadership in His House/Church, ie as lay leaders, pastors and bishops.?
        ….Aren’t such Christians who love their unrepentant homosexual neighbors or socialize with them in Church, hating on God or doing things that greatly displeases Him.?(LEV.18:22 – homosexuality is an abomination to God)
        ….Should an unrepentant homosexual or adulterer or incestor or murderer or thief or idolater who professes to be a Christian, be considered as a Christian brother/sister to be loved by repentant Christians.?(cf: 1JOHN.2:10)

        Should good Christians invite non-reformed drunkards, gamblers, womanizers, drug-addicts, rapists, pedophiles, thieves, murderers, gangsters, homosexuals, bisexuals, pondans, etc, into their houses and hv them as family friends.?

        There is a big difference between inside-the-Church and outside-the-Church. The Church may conduct outreach to homosexuals and other sinners/law-breakers outside the Church. But to bring homosexuality or adultery or pedophilia or incest or bestiality or womanizing or thieving or murdering or idolatry or gangsterism or drugs or sinning/law-breaking into the Church will greatly displease God.
        ….The apostle to the (lawless)Gentiles, Paul, had forbidden these sins/evil-deeds from being practiced by any member of the Church bc the body is the temple of God.(1COR.6:19) Those(non-Christians) who practice such evil outside the Church or in the world are of less concern to Paul or beyond his jurisdiction.

        It’s like how Protestant America is now being destroyed from within by the “infiltration” of non-patriotic illegal Latino migrants and former Black slaves, Muslim terrorist traitors and foreign technology spies(Chinese) bc of America’s inclusiveness or melting-pot culture.

        The kosher food laws taught the law-abiding Jews to not socialize with the mostly lawless Gentiles, eg in marriage, business partnership, close friendship, etc.(2COR.6:14-18) That was why the Lord Jesus Christ never preached to the “unclean” Gentiles, about 2,000 years ago: Was Jesus being unloving to the Gentiles.?

        At times, it is not wise to love others at the expense of loving God or loving self. Try loving a drug-addict or gambling-addict or terrorist(like Osama bin Laden) and see what happens.
        ….There are people in this world who choose to behave like a devil. No amount of prayer or loving can alter the will of a devilish person/satanist.(1JOHN.5:16)
        ….That is why Jesus will be returning to earth soon. He will execute judgement on the billions of unrepentant unbelievers, homosexuals and other sinners on earth. People will reap what they hv sowed, ie when that day comes, the unsaved hv only themselves to blame; they can’t blame God bc the gospel of salvation is available at nearly every corner of the earth or at the click of a mouse.(MATT.24:14)

        • @NPc
          Politics is just a set of cultural norms to ensure groupie cohesiveness either inclusive or exclusive dependent on the sociopathic nature of its leaders and their charisma.

          Like sexuality, the “Christian” church has a continuum from the altruistic to the fringe lunacy; from the Catholics to the Protestant, Reformists, Evangelical, Charismatic and Pentecostals and the list goes on……….when mistaken religious fervency becomes intolerant and zealous we have seen many justifications of wars and advent of incredible human barbarity and depravity. Remember the Crusaders, Ku Klux Klan, Slavers (or how the Western civilization enriched themselves from the 17-20th Century. Remember Bush and his calling upon his “Christian” God to bless the War in Iraq he deceptively unleashed on

          Since we now know that the are no significant differences between the general public and professed “Christians,” it would be safe for us to assume that such incredulously inhuman behavior will be the same in both groups. In the final outcome, there is no difference, no matter what you believe!

          How can that be, since most would agree “salt and light of the world.”

          Being neither a religious scholar or very smart man, seems to me, we should leave the JUDGEMENT process to Jesus when He returns and not try to be “kek kiang,” – do not believe any Christian or Pastor, Archbishop, Cardinal Apostle or “Prince of the Church” or whatever holy honorific has any shred of credibility to act as judge or even advocate since it comes from the mind of a broken and extremely sinful Man (more than one mortal sin!)

          Wud like to share a personally very profound verse with you
          1 Corinthians 13
          New International Version (NIV)
          13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

          4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

          8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

          13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

          Methinks naively that if we cannot obey His greatest commandment, profess and exude LOVE, why bother being “Biblically knowledgable??”

        • I am sorry, Non-Pentecostal, but I cannot disagree with you more.

          I think this is fundamentally a difference between our approaches – you see the Bible as book of dos and donts, I see it as a book about the true Lamb.

          You see Jesus as someone who demands moral excellence from His followers, but the Jesus I know paid for my wrongdoings and imparts His righteousness to me freely and I desire to do good now because of what He has first done for me.

          You see Christians who love their unrepentant homosexual neighbors or socialize with them as “hating on God”. But the Jesus I know eats and drinks (ie, “hangs out” in modern vernacular) with tax collectors and prostitutes, so much so that He was accused of being a FRIEND of tax collectors and sinners by the Pharisees.

          You say it is sometimes not wise to love others at the expense of loving yourself, but Jesus clearly said to love our enemies and pray for them (including drug-addicts and gambling-addicts and terrorists).

          You say no amount of prayer can alter the will of a devilish person, but Jesus said what is impossible with men is possible with God.

          Can we all just dump the traditional religious nonsense that we have been fed since young and realize that Jesus is more awesome than we think?

          • @ Ben …….Those tax-collectors and prostitutes that the Lord Jesus “hung out” with, had all repented and stopped their tax-collecting, prostituting and followed Jesus, eg Mary Magdalene.
            ….They were not unrepentant tax-collectors and prostitutes who kept on sinning after meeting and listening to Jesus or like unrepentant homosexuals and adulterers who kept on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth from the Church.

            Bear in mind that it was Roman rule(about 2,000 years ago) that had allowed such sins/evil-deeds to be committed by some Jews bc Moses Law in a prior Jewish kingdom had prohibited sins like prostitution.

            Ben, since nothing is impossible with God, please pray to God to change the will of Satan and turn him into a harmless dove on earth.*sarcasm*

          • I don’t understand why you persist in adding conditions to the company that Jesus “hung out” with. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus ate and drank with them BECAUSE they repented or were worthy in any way. Neither does it say that Jesus chose to give His friendship because He knew that afterwards they will all repent.

            What the Bible is silent about, then please also be silent about it. If the Bible says that Jesus was accused as a FRIEND of tax collectors and prostitutes by His enemies no less, then He was a friend to sinners indeed, period.

            Your assertion that Christians who love their unrepentant neighbours or homosexuals are actually hating God, is ridiculous and bordering on heresy at best. I’ll ask you to tread carefully.

            But cling on to your law-based opinions if you must. I don’t think you and I have anything more to say or agree on this subject.

          • “Ben, since nothing is impossible with God, please pray to God to change the will of Satan and turn him into a harmless dove on earth.*sarcasm*”

            Sigh.

            Besides the fact that such prayer is NOT in the will of God for him (as is plainly and obviously shown in Scripture and more explicitly in Revelations), I am also not moved or concerned in any way to pray as such with Jesus in my life.

          • @ Ben says:
            26/03/2013 at 4:12 pm

            JOHN.5:14 = Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”

            JOHN.8:11 = She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

            ……. …….

            MATT.10(NKJV)

            MATT.15:21-28(NKJV) = A Gentile Shows Her Faith

            21 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon.

            22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”

            23 But He answered her not a word.

            And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”

            24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

            25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”

            26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”

            27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”

            28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
            _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

            After overcoming the temptations of Satan, the Lord Jesus began His ministry to His fellow Jews by preaching, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”(MATT.4:17)

            Like Jesus, most of His fellow Jews had passed the test of temptations by Satan, ie by obeying the laws/Word of God. Cf: lawless Gentiles.

            That was why, about 2,000 years ago, Jesus came down to earth among the law-abiding Jews and not among the Chinese or other lawless Gentiles.

            But alas, many of these good Jews made the grave mistake of rejecting Jesus as their Messiah/Christ/Savior bc of their intense desire for the return of their earthly kingdom, Israel. They failed at the final hurdle of the 110m hurdle race to heaven.

            Presently, most Gentiles do not hv this hang-up about suffering under foreign occupation and desiring for the return of their former nation/homeland. Eg Singapore Chinese in Singapore, the Chinese in China, the Malays in Malaysia, etc.
            ….But most Gentiles hv the problem of lawlessness. When Gentiles become new Christians, they had little problem about accepting Jesus as their Christ/Savior but instead, they hv the grave problem of repenting of their former lawlessness. It is the complete opposite of the Jews’ situation, about 2,000 years ago, ie those Jews had little problem about lawlessness or obeying the laws/Word of God but they had the grave problem of rejecting Jesus.

            That was why Jesus never had meals with Gentiles or preached to them, ie bc of their lawlessness or uncleanness. He commanded His 12 apostles to do likewise.

            If most of the Jews had accepted Jesus as their Christ, there would hv been very, very few Gentiles being saved from hell.

            I think lawlessness, like homosexuality or adultery, should not be tolerated or condoned in the Church/the House of God/the body of Christ or amongst the brethren.
            ….Lawlessness outside the Church or amongst the people of the world is according to “render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and render unto God what belongs to God”, ie Christians should not persecute or harm non-Christian homos or adulterers outside the Church.
            ….But if Churches do outreach to outsiders who are homos or adulterers or other kinds of sinners; or these sinners wanna join the Church and become Christians, they need to be gently told by matured Christians to repent of their sins/evil-deeds and they should be given reasonable time to repent and reform themselves.

  • As citizens of the country and also as christians, it is impt we know and understand the agenda. We had a glimpse of it in the AWARE saga some years ago,( thanks to a group of christians willing to stand up and speak up)and then the syllabus and some trainers in the schools were revamped. As christians we can be salt and light at different levels – national, society, corporate and peer/oikos level etc. For eg i have a friend who owns a company and listed some years ago and when the Lord convicted him of some of the business practices ( not illegal but morally not good and will not glorify the Lord eg entertaining at nightclubs etc etc)he just stopped it and say no to clients. Lost some business and hated by clients/colleagues but the Lord honours and the business thrive after some impact initially. We cannot in the name of love be tolerant of unrighteous practices and worse still to make it as a norm. Thats why the bible in John and 1 John says the world will hate christians. ( It doesnt mean we go out and antagonise people but when it comes to values that impact the young and families, we must stand up ) Just because there are automobile accidents, it does not mean we stop mfg cars. Just because we have christians who are bad testimonies or we can even have “fakes” does not mean we will stop preaching the gospel. In fact when there are counterfeits/fakes, that means you have something real and genuine. Have we come across fake or counterfeit S$3 bills ? In the current times, there is even a greater need for christians to rise up and stand up for righteousness. We should pray that we have more and more cabinet ministers who are disciples of Jesus .

    • The context in John (and Matthew and Mark and Luke) is that the world will hate believers because of WHO WE PREACH. So, please don’t use this to justify the world hating us because we try to force our alien moral values on them for its own sake, or try to thumb our collective noses at the debauched heathens who are clearly not worthy to breathe the same air as us Chrisitans and who Jesus will surely return to condemn to the hellfires of destruction for all eternity amen.

      Hated for preaching the gospel = yes, I agree with you that this is promised to us and we should not get discouraged but in fact encouraged that we are doing the right thing.

      Hated for doing silly anti-social stuff and antagonizing the public = well, I can only say that we “Christians” deserve the bad name we give the label.

  • What John says is correct – presume Jesus was the first “Christian” and because of He was perfect, the imperfect rulers could not accept Him, so we got rid of Him. Unfortunately following Him, many have tried to claim false holiness believing that they have hidden their blemishes. Wonder why the need to feel morally superior when it is all a sham.

    Are you without SINS that you can judge your brother or sister. I am a sinner and continue to sin despite my best effort, hence my eternal gratitude for garce

    What is the difference between deception and homosexuality, is one any less or more easily justifiable?

    Are you perfect already?

  • 1. I’ve always imagined life to be a race.

    Philippians 3:14
    I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

    2. It is vital be in the right race in the first place.

    Matthew 7:14
    But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

    3. Once we are in the right race, we are given a pair of 6 inch Christian Louboutin (our sinful desires) to run in.

    Hebrews 12:1
    Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

    4. Once, we are in the right race, there’ll be all sorts of bump on the road to stumble us on top of the 6 inch of heels.

    1 Corinthians 6:9,10
    -Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    5. But since we are already in the right race, whenever we stumble, Lord Jesus will pull us up, encourage us and help us to run again.

    Romans 8:1
    Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

    6. There is no sin that is too big for Jesus’s blood.

    1 John 3:15
    Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
    Matthew 5:28
    But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

    7. We all have to look at the finish line where Jesus is standing with the crown of life in his loving hands.

    James 1:12
    Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
    Hebrews 12:2
    fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    8. Not at how fast or slow or how many times our neighbours fall

    Matthew 7:1
    “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

    9. Because you cannot see properly when you’re running forward, looking and lecturing sideways

    Matthew 7:3-5
    3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

    10. We should help our neighbour along instead

    1 John 3:16
    This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.

    11. The governing bodies should put up and we should support the upheld signposts and banners along the narrow road to help lead us along and to warn us of the bumps and the holes up ahead,

    ‘Sexual immorality is a no-no.
    Gay marriage is forbidden (and very strange :)).
    Adultery is sin.
    Hatred is murder.
    Looking lustfully at the opposite sex is adultery.
    Lying is a sin.
    etc., etc.

    12. We should all be thankful for the signposts. It is not going to guarantee we are going to run without falling but at least we know what to look out for and which road to take (or not) at the intersection.

    13. Let’s start running..:)

    “I began to learn to wrestle with my homosexuality in community over many late-night cups of coffee and in tear-soaked, face-on-the-floor times of prayer with members of my church”

    Lastly but most importantly, the Holy Spirit of God will live in us to lead and guide us into all things and empowers us to finish the race.

    John 14:26
    But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

    Lastly but most importantly, the Holy Spirit of God will live in us to lead and guide us into all things and empowers us to finish the race.

    John 14:26
    But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

    Galatians 5:22
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    Lyn

    • @ lyn

      1COR.6:9-11(NKJV) = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

      Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

      11 AND SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

      …….

      Also, HEB.10:26-31 says that those who sin willfully or intentionally or purposely or unrepentantly, after receiving the knowledge of the truth(=laws/Word of God), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, not even the blood of Jesus, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation(of God) which will devour the adversaries(=enemies of God)
      _ _ _ _ _ _ _

      How would you categorize those homos who still remain in their homo-sin of having anal sex after professing to be Christians for 10 years.? Are they still in the Christian race of life.?
      ….I think these unrepentant homos hv disqualified themselves from the race by not repenting of their homo-sins after so many years. There is a limit to God’s patience and mercy.
      ….As we know, every marathon race or F1 car race has rules and regulations. Break any major rule and you are out of the race, eg a marathon-runner hitches a car-ride or uses performance-enhancing-drugs.(MATT.7:19-29)

      This also applies to fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, thieves, drunkards, extortioners, revilers, etc…. in the Church who hv not repented of their same sins after 10 or many years, as in, “Such were some of you”, at 1COR.6:11.

      The Corinthians were Greek Gentiles who lived in a part of Greece. B4 becoming Christians, most of them were sinners/law-breakers, which were common among the lawless Gentiles. After coming to the knowledge of the truth, most of them repented and stopped sinning or committing their former evil-deeds, eg homosexuality.

      About the Christan race or journey, this race of life begins with the washing of hands and feet by the laws/Word of God(bc sins/evil-deeds are done by the hands and feet), sanctification and followed by justification(by faith) in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.(1COR,6:11) Hence:

      1. At JOHN.3:5, the Lord Jesus stated that only those who hv been born-again of WATER and the Spirit shall inherit eternal life.
      2. At JOHN.13:1-30, the Lord Jesus symbolically washed the feet of His apostles to point out the unclean(sinning) Judas.
      3. At JOHN.15:3, the Lord Jesus stated that His apostles were clean bc of the word which He had spoken to them.
      4. At JOHN.6:63, the Lord Jesus told His apostles that it is the Spirit who gives (eternal)life, the words that He had spoken to them are Spirit, and His words are life.
      5. At HEB.4:12, Paul stated that the Word of God is living and powerful,….
      6. At EPH.6:17, Paul stated that the sword of the Spirit is the Word of God.

      It seems, to the Pentecostals/Charismatics, the laws, commandments and Word of God/Jesus is not the sword of the Spirit. Rather, their spiritual life seems not to be based on the washing by the Word of God. Their spiritual experiences can even go against the Word of God, eg lawlessness and chaos.

      Can a practicing homo inherit the kingdom of God.? Seems like some Pentecostals/Charismatics think the answer is yes, esp when they condone and tolerate unrepentant homosexuality in their Church, in the name of loving every Tom, Dick and Harry or every Ah Kow, Ah Kua and Ah-mad.

      Jesus had commanded His apostles to love one another.(JOHN.15:12, cf: 1JOHN.2:10) This is the same as “love your neighbor as yourself” at MATT.22:39 which Jesus had quoted from LEV.19:18. Remember that during Moses time, the Jews’ neighbors were all fellow Jews, ie they had no Gentile neighbors.
      ….Hence, now, this commandment can be defined and applied as to love the brothers-in-Christ/sisters-in-Christ in the Church. This commandment of Jesus does not apply for those outside the Church.
      ….Christians may do outreach to them with compassion, kindness, patience and cordiality. I don’t think Christians should love them like a brother-in-Christ/sister-in-Christ.

      At ROM.12:20, loving your enemies is in the context of not avenging themselves against religious persecution by the powerful Jewish religious authorities and Roman emperors but letting God avenge on their behalf:
      = 20 Therefore,
      “If your enemy is hungry, feed him;If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
      For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”[a]
      ….Footnotes: [a] PROVERBS.25:21, 22

      This was how God punished the greedy Western colonizers, ie by sending them WW1 and WW2. These were wars over colonies, like secret society turf-wars.

      If the Jews could obey all the laws of Moses and master their inborn sinful desire that tempted them to commit sins/evil-deeds, as had been proven by the rich young ruler at MATT.19:16-26 and by the beggar Lazarus at LUKE.16:19-31, there is no reason why a matured Gentile Christian could not accomplish the same.
      ….It is a cop-out for such mature Christians to blame their sinful desires or unwarranted fears or weakness when they willfully commit sins.(cf: MATT.5:20) They hv the Word/HS to help them, to convict them of sin and to avoid sin/evil-deed.

      Like they say, “Scare-crows may fly around your head, but do not let them build nests on your head.”

      • @NPc
        “…..Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God….”

        After all the “nors”…..who else could be left to become Christian? Am sure that habits are extremely hard to change even one, let alone a multitude of them. There is a truism, “the mind is willing but the flesh is weak.” You

        “…….who still remain in their homo-sin of having anal sex after professing to be Christians for 10 years….” Questions…. does this include heterosexuals who have occasional homosexual relationships or heterosexuals that indulge in anal sex also? What about those that indulge for less than 10 years, say 9.95 years, not sure if you meant calendar years or 365day years – methinks there will be issue trying to be legally precise with no room for subjective interpretation by anybody – suggest to you that this cannot be done. Seems to me your cutoffs are arbitrary at best and subjective at worse.

        Never mind anybody else of whatever beliefs or religious persuasion – are you yourself SIN free? I am not and have not met anyone in my fairly extensive travels around the globe – you would be the very first if you answered in the affirmative. It would be awesome!

        “….At ROM.12:20, loving your enemies is in the context of not avenging themselves against religious persecution by the powerful Jewish religious authorities and Roman emperors….” assume from your statement, this was true during the Roman Empire era only – it is a contemporaneous truth. Presume this would invalidate the use of the Bible as a guide for ethics and morals in our 21st century society.

        I have a personal belief, waiting to be proven wrong by someone like yourself….that is “All living “Christians” are SINNERS, even those that seem to “know” the Bible extremely well attend Church XXtimes per week and prays XXtimes per day everyday!” You may also want to include all the “rabbi, pastor, apostles, deacons, bishops, archbishops, cardinals, pope, patriarchs etc etc….”

        Look forward to be enlightened about myt less than perfect brother and sister whom God has not condemned yet, but some want to.

      • “Scare-crows (sic) may fly around your head, but do not let them build nests on your head.”

        Easy for you to say, but what about those born without hands?

        • @ Ben says:
          26/03/2013 at 4:26 pm

          When those born without hands are disturbed by scary-crows flying around their heads and trying to build nests on their heads, they can always shake their head vigorously or hide inside their houses or wear the crash-helmet of salvation, to stop the crows from successfully building their nests.
          _ _ _ _ _ _ _

          Ben,…. Ben,….;
          The saying, “Scary-crows may fly around your head, but do not let them build nests on your head”, is an analogy or a parable.
          ….It means to resist the temptations of the devil and not commit sins/evil-deeds, eg MATT.4:1-11. Scary-crows symbolize the tempting-thoughts, fearful-thoughts or other evil-thoughts that come from Satan. When people entertain these evil-thoughts, these thoughts will bear fruit and become evil-deeds/sins, ie they will go and commit sins/evil-deeds.
          ….Evil-hearts/flesh –> evil-thoughts –> evil-deeds/sins.

          Example; hateful and angry thoughts may lead to verbal abuse, physical assaults or murder, against others or against self(=suicide).

          It is the same as Paul saying at EPH.6:16, “above all, taking the shield of faith with which to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one”. Paul is not saying that Satan, literally, shoots lit-arrows at people, like in period-Chinese kingdom war movies. He shoots evil-thoughts at people.

          Hence, at JOHN.8:44, the Lord Jesus told the Pharisees, “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. ….”, ie they wanted to murder Jesus for being a heretic and blasphemer of Judaism.

          People cannot stop these evil-thoughts or their inborn sinful desires/fears, but they can stop themselves from committing evil-deeds/sins. How.? For Jews and Christians, it is by obeying the laws/Word of God. This will result in a good and long life on earth. Since Christians also believe in Jesus, they will also go to heaven after they die.

          People cannot go to heaven by just obeying the laws/Word of God but rejecting Jesus, eg the Jews.
          ….Similarly, people will most probably not be going to heaven by just believing in Jesus but keep on willfully sinning or breaking or rejecting the laws/Word of God, eg formerly lawless Gentile Christians who live on Radical Grace and keep on being lawless – they will most probably be afflicted by earthly calamities causing them to curse God and die, like the wife of Job.

      • Hi NP,

        I miss you.

        I’m totally against sin. I love the Lord very much and i hate what He hates.

        I wish there is such a thing as us accepting the Lord at point A and then we totally zoom to point Z which is perfection in God’s sight. wow.

        But this is not possible with anyone. People are all different. Some people are faster in their obedience but many will still go on with their sins for years to come. I’m still sinning everyday (ooops)

        Every Christian know sinning is wrong, it’s bad. But this has been their way for a long time. I have not met one sinless Christian all my life, or yet. have you?

        My observation is that those who look very good also love to gossip a lot (lack of love, hate, envy, murder). Those who look bad from the outside (tattooed) sometimes has a good heart and love God and loved by God. We don’t know these things.

        So, we are all struggling, one way or another.

        I feel more sympathy for the human plight because I’m still struggling in many ways (backstabbing).

        Also, the Lord was asked this question once ‘how many times do I forgive those who sin against me?’ The Lord said 77 times. This is the perfect number of God. Which He is saying as many times as God would forgive us (till death). (or we can also count up to 77 times to repeat the same sin).

        But I thoroughly believe that once a person is truly born again, the Holy Spirit indwells them and if they refused or unable to repent on their own, one thing after another will happen till they leave that sin behind (all things happen for good). To you, NP, this is punishment, to me this moulding.

        Sooner or later, in God’s timing, a true believer will be transformed to the beautiful image of Christ from glory to glory whether they wanted to or not. They will be led, knocked, mould, cut and polished till they fulfill their beautiful calling in Christ. It does not hurt that the diamond cutter is The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit Himself. Some believers like you, NP, it’s fasterla, I’m sure. the rest of us struggle a bit more. You don’t have to worry so much about the plight of your fellow Christians. As I have said earlier, all we need to do is to love them as our Lord had commanded us.

        Also, if God can forgive those who rejected Christ all their lives (the greatest sin) only to turn to Jesus on their deathbed (especially if they are homosexuals who have lived up to the ripe old age of 105), why should He not forgive His own wayward children? Unless your argument is that nobody gets saved after whatever age you yourself got saved.

        The words a non-believer need to say on their deathbed is ‘Lord Jesus, please save me’. If got more time a ‘thank You, God’ is nice.

        Also, I watched on YouTube that Jesus appeared to many Muslims nowadays. This is by His Grace. Not because the Muslims love the prophet Isa. Some who Jesus appeared to are professional Christian murderers.

        The Grace message is spot on in this issue. The Grace of God is bigger than anything..It will save the most undeserving, at times. It’s not unlike the Grace message in Matthew 20:1-16. ‘Are you envious because I’m generous? So, the last will be first, and the first will be last’ says the landowner.

        Don’t be too surprised if when you reach heaven your mansion is next to Adolf’s, NP ah..

        • I used ‘diamond cutter’ does not mean that God is the one that cuts us. The trouble is of our own making but the consequence is that He will allow these things to mould our character and lead us out till we become the people He wants us to be..

  • Standing up for certain values or standing up agst certain behaviour is not making judgement (condemning a person).There is no neutrality on moral issues. Please try and understand the agenda. The pastors of the city have engaged the authorities well in this area and we should thank God for them and continue to pray for the Lord’s wisdom and favour upon them. We should always question but dont allow cynicism and skeptcism to become stumbling blocks .

  • @justthinking

    “…………standing up agst certain behavior is not making judgement (condemning a person)?”….Really?

    Agree with your above perspective if you are nonchalant, lackadaisical, ambivalent or best of all completely clueless with no opinion…..then your statement would be essentially “true” – if you have a “alternative position,” then you will be seeking to impose a product of your personal belief system on a public that may not share your sentiments.

    Is this is also an Agenda of some extreme “Christian Homophobic group?” – being demonized and labelled is no fun, so we should refrain from doing this to others? Can a homophobe, non humanist ever profess to be “Christian” – is this being a credible “light and salt?”

  • @JT, NPc

    My scientific background makes me curious – how does one would go about defining a homosexual?

    Person who is attracted to another of the same sex?

    Even to define what prototypical sex might be is highly problematic – Do we use sex hormone serum levels, external genitalia anatomy similarity, psychological test results, chromosomal complement maps, RFLP patterns similarity – guess you guys are aware that in biology, we have a gaussian distribution for any objective measurement we can to make from the smallest to the largest attributes.

    Do we use 1,2 or 3 standard deviations as a inclusion or exclusion limit hierarchical or do we cluster based on coefficient of similarity or deviation in a density cloud spherical model.

    The point of this long winded ambiguity that if we were to attempt practice eugenics with our religious beliefs and had to “cull” deviants from our population, then we need to define what a typical aberrant would look like. Just try to imagine what a chief Inquisitor with the power of life or death on homosexuals would do.

    Fact is we all have “Agendas” – fact is any antihumanist agenda is down right dangerous to the continued existence of the human race. We already have the means to destroy the world planet, do we have the wisdom to leave a legacy for our childrens’ children that is worth inheriting?

  • As mentioned, the knowledge and understanding of the agenda is in the interest of the citizens of the country, forget about christians, since christians cant even agree on how to stand up for the right values and for fear of being judgemental( pointless to dwell on this) best will be “quiet” citizens and stay home and mind your biz. But yet we are suppose to share the gospel which is truly exclusive in Jesus words eg whoever belives in him is not condemned but whoever does not believe stands condemned…, whoever believes in the Son has eternal life but whosoever rejcts the Son will not see life.., etc etc. There are many non christians esp those with families who appreciate the raising of the agenda with the govt as they understand this is not about religious issues. I am therefore very surprised that some christians are finding an issue with this and using terms like imposing alien moral values on others. Many of the non christians i talked to understand and acknowledged how this agenda has been pursued to the point of true moral decadence in some of the countries in the west breaking down traditional marriages etc. Please find out more about the agenda and you will understand. I truly thank the Lord for the pastors of the city who are willing to step up and tackle tough issues, not easy as one can see. It is always easier to be people pleasers. From what i see and my own experience it seems the tougher group to deal with is the family of God. Just remember a few key premises. We are all sexual beings and sexuality is created by God. God made us male and female. Homosexuals are not a class of people and neither are heterosexuals. We are born males and females.

    • I did read Pastor Lawrence Khong’s letter addressing this issue. And I’m sure it describes the “agenda” adequately, no? So I think we are indeed talking about the same thing.

      Anyway, my point is this: How would you feel if Muslims rose up as a group and tried to impose a law that states that every man can have 3-4 wives? Or a law that every thief would have their hands cut off? Or a law for adulterers to be stoned? Or a law that forces every woman to be veiled and covered from head to toe?

      Perhaps you can even agree with one of these laws, but think of the sizable amount of people that don’t agree. How would they feel when a “religious” group of people rose up en masse and tried to force their values on them? Do you think this encourages mutual respect and tolerance, or does this fuel an us-vs-them mentality? If Christians were to do this, do you think this paves the way for the Good News to be readily received? Or does this hinder it? Think of what it does to the good name of the group in question, and how it ultimately reflects upon the God that they serve.

      Let’s also be fair. If we do not want Muslims to force their values, how come we can have different standards for Christians? Sorry, but I don’t think having a portion of society agree with us on some of our values is a good excuse, simply because there are always others who don’t.

      Still, I must qualify that if one wants to champion a certain cause, please do it out of your own personal capacity. Please don’t use the “Christian” label implicity or explicity to garner more support and hinder those of us who are more concerned with preaching the good news, simply because like you said “we don’t all agree”.

      I hope this is some food for thought.

      • Maybe God has a great sense of humor – is this pastor who practices the deceptive art of illusions?

        You need to be a master of deception to be able to teach the truth – it is oxymoronic!

        “Real Christians’ homophobic message” is we need to continue and jail these sexual deviants so we can protect the morals of this great society, however prostitution, alcoholic binge drinking, adultery, oral or anal sex (ok for heterosexuals), gambling, smoking and whatever else that ihas not been criminalized.

    • You need to know also that your view of “we are born males and females” is very black and white. Like it or not, that is simply not how it works in real life.

      As Journeyman has alluded to, there is also evidence that homosexual behavior is not just a nurture thing, but also a nature thing. Meaning, some of us are genetically predisposed to be being homosexuals, just like how some of us are genetically predisposed to certain abilities, behaviors and illnesses. Imagining that some people are homosexuals by sheer choice, or that we belong to a certain sexual classification with no variation in between, is just a very very naive thing to assume. I only have 1 word for you: Hermaphrodites. How would you classify them??

      Does this make homosexuality any less sinful? No! This is the reality of living in a fallen world, where everything is NEVER ideal.

      Let’s have some empathy for those who had a worse hand than us in the genetic lottery draw of life. We are blessed to be who we are only by our Lord’s grace.

      • @JT
        Perhaps we are ready to condemn these other “abnormal” people who were considered abominable by ancient societies and some primitive ones even in the 21st Century. There are many more such anomalies but it does not mean they are less deserving of God’s company or grace, since any SIN is abominable to God, yet He has sacrificed His Son and extended grace to anybody who seeks and wants it.

        Sex Chromosomal Anomalies
        1) XXY, XXYY, XXXY (nominally male) Klinefelter syndrome – sterility, small testicles, breast enlargement

        2) XYY (super male) XYY syndrome – normal external male traits

        3) XO (female) Turner syndrome – sex organs don’t mature at adolescence, sterility, short stature

        4) XXX (female) Trisomy X – tall stature, learning disabilities, limited fertility

  • @NPc
    Just an observation about the moniker you use – presume it best describes your “religious beliefs.”

    My cursory understanding is that a Pentecostalists is somebody who believes in a direct relationship with God through a baptism by the Holy Spirit – does this mean you do not believe in this perspective?

    Is this a correct analysis and deduction?

    Delighted if you would care to clarify as my rational model construct of you will make a lot more sense of your many posting.

  • Ps Khong did not even quote a single bible verse addressing the issue. As many discerning non christians realise, the agenda is not a religious issue. That’s why PM spoke on it extensively a couple of years ago. If you think this is imposing a religious moral/lawm then it means you do not understand the agenda.Please accept my apology first,I dont mean to be rude. But not all of us understand the agenda until we learn more about it and there is nothing wrong with that cos we dont deal with these issues every other day.But when there is a serious attempt to push a agenda that impact the foundation of families ultimately, we as citizens and more so as christians must be bold enough to stand up. Forget about christians if that offends you altho the bible is black and white on sexuality. The source of homosexual desires has not been determined. But even if there is a genetic component ( although one wonders how it is passed on) those desires dont excuse behaviour. An orientation towars homosexuality doesnt make the behaviour morally right anymore than an orientation toward violence makes gay bashing morally right. This is just one argument agst so called born dispositions and therefore we should “normalise” the behaviour which is one of the agenda. Will not dwell on this as officially there is still a gag order from AG. A fanatstic must read book “Mind The Gap” by Dr Li Ann Thio addresses many of the issues. Its a clarion call to engage in the public square.It will answer many of our questions which cant be addressed on th blog. The theme is really Contending for Righteousness in an Age Of Lawlessness. ” Surveying the signs of the times, Prof Thio discerns an increasingly hostile secular culture that shouts down those who believe in objective Right and Wrong. Beyond wringing hands over whether it is still possible to have a shared vision of what constitutes Common Good where the cult of the atomized individual reigns, she asks how the professing Christian will respond.. A prophetic challenge to those who are lukewarm in their Faith “. Piero A. Tozzi The objective of this blog is to share views and this is a great book where no words are minced.

    • Thank you for your tactful reply, Justthinking.

      Don’t get me wrong. Of course I personally support the idea of marriage between 1 man and woman and I am thoroughly against the idea of marriage between couples of the same sex and so on. In fact, I also find it extremely repulsive and would much rather have laws that prohibit such unions.

      I also have nothing but good intentions towards people in general that fight for good political causes. So I think we are all on the same page here.

      What I am wary about are Christians fighting for such secular political causes as a group, for the reasons I have already stated.

      While Pastor Khong may even have made his stand in a personal capacity (without quoting bible verses as you said), as a well-known Christian leader he should have been aware that the public will inevitably associate his actions with the Christian community at large. Agree?

      Again, he may have good intentions, but are they also wise ones in the larger and more important context of paving the way for the gospel? I’ll leave that for you to decide.

      I’ll also remind you that Jesus in His entire ministry here on earth completely refused to be drawn in to political matters. He skillfully deflected questions about taxes to Caesar, and refused to be involved in the wishes of the Jewish people to rise up against Roman oppression.

      Please don’t forget also that Roman civil laws are different and people participated in many many un-kosher things that were absolutely against Jewish thinking. If the “homosexual agenda” bothers us, how do you think the Jewish people of the day felt??

      But fighting for political causes was just not His priority. Instead He was only concerned with saving people and preaching the good news. Does this illustrate my point more clearly?

    • You said: “But even if there is a genetic component ( although one wonders how it is passed on) those desires dont excuse behaviour. An orientation towars homosexuality doesnt make the behaviour morally right anymore than an orientation toward violence makes gay bashing morally right.”

      Of course!

      But like I said, this is the reality of a fallen world, where there are people born with violent dispositions, or homosexual/bisexual preferences, or sociopathic tendencies or both male and female reproductive organs, or even born into broken families. Just like how some people are given a generous and meek disposition, and how others are gentle and kind, and how even others are born into rich and privileged backgrounds. Opposite ends of the same spectrum.

      Even our former prime minister Lee Kuan Yew has had to recant his stance on homosexuals, because he has come to realize that there is evidence for genetic factors for such behavior!

      Read CS Lewis “Mere Christianity”. He likens our bodies/genetic makeup to vehicles. If one is given a lousy vehicle prone to breakdown and biased steering, while another is given a good vehicle with precision control and reliabilty, how can one judge that the other is a better driver??

      This is the basis of why only God can rightfully give judgement, and that we should empathize with those with lousy vehicles and realize the importance of preaching the gospel to them. Only Jesus and Jesus only can truly transform them.

      • @ Ben says:
        27/03/2013 at 11:49 am

        Quoting: “……. there are people born with violent dispositions, or homosexual/bisexual preferences, or sociopathic tendencies….”

        Seems like you hv rejected what the Word of God says about people being transformed into homosexuals by God, for their sin of knowingly and purposely rejecting God, ie:
        ROMANS.1:18-32(NKJV) =

        God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

        18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

        20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

        24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

        26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

        28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;

        32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

  • It is really not about Biblical verses – the objection is using a religious pulpit to make a statement on a contentious societal civic issue. If Lawrence Khong spoke as a private citizen, there will be no fuss.

    Regarding Dr Thio Li Ann….not all share your enthusiasm….NYU Law School controversy(Wiki..)

    Thio was to be a visiting human rights professor at New York University School of Law in the fall of 2009 until she withdrew her acceptance in July 2009.[27][28] Her appointment prompted many to call for condemnation of her “anti-gay hate speech” before Parliament.[18] The University’s gay and lesbian law student group, NYU OUTLaw, released a statement calling for the condemnation.[29][30][31]
    NYU Law School’s Dean Richard Revesz issued a memorandum stating “the Law School categorically rejects the point of view expressed in Professor Thio’s speech, as evidenced by our early and longstanding commitment to end discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.”[32] Students at NYU Law School have issued statements as well.
    Thio then sent an 18-point defense memo to the entire NYU Law faculty.[30] On 22 July 2009, she informed the school of her withdrawal from the appointment, citing hostility by its community towards her views and low enrollment.[28][31] It was reported that only 9 students applied for her course on Human Rights and 5 for her another course on Constitutionalism.[33]

  • Just to make sure everybody is on the same page……Apostle Lawrence Khong’s speech in honor of ESM Goh……..

    “Mr Goh, it’s my pleasure to welcome you once again to Faith Community Baptist Church. The last time we met was during the Marine Parade light up.

    We are so honoured by your visit again this morning.

    I would like to take this opportunity to share with you my heart and the heartbeat of the people in this church, as well as committee pastors of LoveSingapore which is an informal, relational network of some 100 churches with a membership of at least 40,000 Christians.

    One, we believe that the building of Singapore is an exciting enterprise.

    Two, we feel passionately that Singapore is a place worth fighting for!

    Three, we want to create a Singapore we are all proud of.

    Sir, we are convinced that there’s no better starting point for this noble endeavor than the Family.

    Therefore, we are committed as a church to build strong families in Singapore.

    We affirm that the family unit comprises a man as Father, a woman as Mother, and Children. This is the basic building block of society, a value foundational for a secure future, a premise fundamental to nation-building.

    We see a looming threat to this basic building block by homosexual activists seeking to repeal Section 377A of the Penal Code.

    Examples from around the world have shown that the repeal of similar laws have led to negative social changes, especially the breakdown of the family as a basic building block and foundation of the society. It takes away the rights of parents over what their children are taught in schools, especially sex education. It attacks religious freedom and eventually denies free speech to those who, because of their moral convictions, uphold a different view from that championed by increasingly aggressive homosexual activists.

    We love our nation. We sincerely pray for and look to the Government to provide moral leadership in preserving this basic building block and foundation of our society. And with that, to robustly protect our constitutional rights to free speech and religious liberty; so as to ensure that social cohesion and religious harmony are maintained in Singapore.”

  • Yes its impt we are on the same page. The issue i reiterate is not about homosexuals but about the homosexual agenda. This is a very impt distinction and I believe Ps Khong started with this. I dont need to defend him as he is completely frank and transparent on FB and have answered many of the issues raised including religion and the public square. Anyway this is issue is not about him but i do appreciate and thank God for the pastors of the city for standing up for the country’s moral values. As a side note, if we had more christians in the cabinet we could have avoided the casino. The consequences of the agenda are best seen in the US where in some states the teachers avoid calling the children boys and girls but just children as they maybe sued for influencing the kid on his /her choice of sexual orientation. Was told a couple of churches in Canada were sued for not willing to conduct a gay marriage. Personally i feel US is one of the best egs where “freedom’ has led to many disastrous results in the area of family and even in the financial sector. When the country opens 1 door, the next will be attacked and ultimately …. Anecdotally, the response from non christians esp those with families is very positive, they understand esp after listening. I also believe the Aware saga a few years ago has raised the level of awareness in this area when parents were shocked at what has infiltrated into schools. It just happened (?) that the group who raised this was a group of christians but whatever, parents appreciated very much and changes were made. The point i raised on behavioural orientation is just to highlight the fallacy of the argument some use to justify homosexulaity and to normalise the behaviour. Like i said it has not been proven medically so one cant use this argument. In fact others have argued that the testimony of ex-gays/LGBTs contradicts the notion that one is born. I cant be a ex chinese or ex indian. Look at Sy Rogers ministry and on the homefront COOS. Mind The Gap was given to me some years ago. Heavy reading initially but realised its solid food ( Hebrews 5&6). Have a open mind , read it. Thanks for info on Dr Thio, true warrior for Christ and willing to stand up. No neutrality on moral issues. Yes down the road, the church shoud teach us more on the lies and doctrinal perversions related to this issue.

    Another commentary says : ….. It challenges , exhorts and insists that it is the responsibility of every christian to reclaim the intellectual and spiritual ground ceded in each of our lives to the pseudo-cultural wars that have ensnared an entire generation, seducing us into believing that nothing painful, difficult or sacrificial can or should be associated with the Good News of God’s love…. Prof Ruth Okediji, University of Minnesota Law School, USA.

    “…. Her book challenges contemporary christians to draw on the resources of the Bible as God’s Word and live out their disciplship in the world…..she drwas deeply from the Binle and relates biblical truth to the challenges we all face today with careful thought and spiritual energy… Rev Dr V Samuel, Director Emeritus, Oxford UK.

    As mentioned, I dont know her its a book given by a friend but its a gem and will answer and challenge many of the issues discussed.

    Its not about using a religious pulpit. The govt engages the different religious groups in all these issues including for eg casino issue.The pastors of the city have engaged with the authorities well and we must always pray for the wisdom of the Lord and His favor to be upon them. The world’s path is always the path of least resistance. Someone wrote earlier about right race and right place and narrow is the gate.

    • @JT n NPc

      A memorable, redemptive n edifying quote from a FCBC member ………

      “Hi, I’m a member of Lawrence Khongs church Faith Community Baptist Church (FCBC), Singapore, having gone to the church for many years. I would like to apologise to all LGBT and the pain you have gone through. who would choose a life of discrimination and persecution ?I’m sorry that the church has not been a place of solace and peace to you. instead it has been a source of anguish and pain
      My heart ached when a friend in church came out to me recently and he told me that if there as a pill with a 1% chance of turning him straight and normal, and a 99% fatality rate he would gladly take it. I asked him why he wanted to change so badly and he told me about his many years of counselling with his parents, pastors and cell leaders to deal with it and that after 12 years, he had given up. ……….”

  • Originally it contained this paragraph that was deleted 3 days after the posting:
    “”We must sound the trumpet because the church must get herself into battle footing, and be battle-ready. The first salvo was fired by the Senior Pastor of FCBC this week on the LGBT issue and the churches are beginning to mobilise themselves not just for this battle, but for the many battles ahead of us. The LGBT bloc will of course be outraged, but that is to be expected. We must make a stand for righteousness in this nation. This war is winnable and the church will arise victorious. We are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus who loved us. Be ready for a sharp polarising of our society over the gay and lesbian issue and when it happens, you better make sure you know which side you are on. Grace to all of you.” – Pastor Yang Tuck Yoong

    justified crusaders or divisive disruptors of tranquility?

  • For me, the greatest disappointment is finding a great numbers of believers are of the fire and brimstone variety despite all the profession of Grace and Love. Beyond the criminality of use of force for sex, exploitation of the young or mentally challenged (below legal competence), SEX should and must remain a strictly private matter. Usually sexual orientation and preference is only known to the sex partners themselves. The world only finds out when there is a confession by these persons or it has been done in a public space or in a manner that is visible to the general public. I have no doubt that humans are capable of many more acts of depravity and barbarity beyond consensual sex that may not be everybody’s’ idea of morality or “normal” sex copulation. Believe some religious rituals are even more gruesome and masochistic, however we accept them in a secular society as “right to religious practice.”

    Regarding your statement on “homosexual agenda,” – this wud be perpetrated by “friends and relatives and homosexuals themselves” – believe the rest would be lukewarm. Similarly, morality and LBGT sex and lifestyle would be offensive to “fundamentalist” christians. Still confused, what you are objecting to – sodomy between the same sex or the act of sodomy itself or both? Maybe we sud even be suspcious of people with a majority of same sex friends also?

  • The coming Momentum Conference by the Love Spore churches will be focusing on the family and the church of Spore will also be taught on the LGBT issues, what’s happening around the world and also testimonies by churches in other countries who will share their experiences.Worth attending for some “solid food”.

    • A quote from Ann Rice ………..

      In the name of Christ, I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian.

      • Hi Journeyman,

        In my opinion, living in God’s grace, love and kindness does not mean we are able to live in sin and go on sinning.

        If you have read all the posts by NP, you will know the 101 reasons why God does not like homosexuality and it’s a sin.

        The grace of God is to draw us to Him. His goodness is meant to lead us to repentance and obedience. This is a process that may take years and years but take place it must.

        This is like the guy in blogpastor’s article.

        “I began to learn to wrestle with my homosexuality in community over many late-night cups of coffee and in tear-soaked, face-on-the-floor times of prayer with members of my church”

        I know this because i have spent many nights tear soaked, face on the floor times of prayer myself. Not for the same sin but sin nevertheless. Let me just put it out there, anger and the consequence thereof.

        It may be long and hard but the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.

        He leads me beside quiet waters.

        He leads in the path of righteousness for His Name’s sake.

        So, The Lord will lead us if we will follow, Journeyman.

        I can say ‘ah, being angry and my life of strife is just the way I am’, ‘I was born this way’ “it’s genetics’ “God made me this way, is it my fault?’ “it’s a private matter, it’s between me and my family’ ‘is it just the anger or is it the act and words thereafter that people object to?”

        All these are just words. There is only one thing to do. I know I’m forgiven but I prayed and prayed to overcome this problem.

        Overcome (thank You Lord) it, I did. So, this is the way to deal with every sin.

        When we are finally out of the woods, we can literally see the rainbow. Living outside God’s best for us brings nothing but upheaval and pain. No matter how we try to ignore these things, it will come and bite us in the backside, so to speak. No matter how much preachers of radical grace tries to deny this fact, the truth is that it will.

        This is an argument that no one can dispute with because I live it. At the end, experience is the best teacher.

        When we live God’s way, there is peace and joy and this is where the true blessings come. This is where His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. This is heaven on earth and this is when His kingdom come.

        This is when we truly pray as the Lord taught us to. His will be done. I usually ask God for this and that but my passion is to see His will be done. I know whatever He gives me is the best for me anyway. This is where rich or poor, lose or win does not matter anymore. My desire is to see His desires triumphed over mine.

        The more I live this way, the more I see my desires merges with the Lord’s and I live a very satisfying life despite my don’t haves. My peace, joy, happiness and satisfaction are overflowing.

        I don’t know if I have answered your question (yes to grace and love but no to homosexuality because at the end it’ll cause pain to the backside, no pun intended) but this my take on it la.

  • I only know God hate all sins – so who is without sin to cast the first stone. Interesting that Jesus is quite silent on whole suject of homosexuality – if I am not mistaken – it is mentioned only once in the new testament – Tim 1:10 ?
    Since nobody on this blog is anywhere close to being sin free, why are those with planks picking on just this group of sinners with specks?

    Is any sin less abonimable? Are “christians” just talking heads who do not practise what they preach – a mob of pious hypocrites?

  • I don’t think the plank and the speck argument applies to me because I am the on who pointed out clearly my own plank, as such.

    If there is a moral that applies to me in my writings it might be the virgins with no oil.

    I teach my kids lessons from my life all the time. Snippets of it so that they make informed choices when the time comes. They neither feel judged nor condemned. My intention is so that they may walk uprightly and beautifully before the Lord their God.

    I don’t think I’m a hypocrite for teaching them the way that they should go, although I had done many things wrong, I do not wish them to repeat my mistakes.

    I’m sure all Christians are the same. Even NP with all his brimstone and fire (I still miss you, NP ah) has the best of intentions. We only live for that long and then its us standing before Christ.

    The government should be encouraged according to our Christian ways because we can clearly see what happen with the gun laws in the US. Everybody is being shot!

    Call me a hypocrite or whatever it is, JM, there is a strong tendency in me to want to see good prevail over evil no matter what kind of sinner I am.

  • A lastest must read book by Dr Li-Ann Thio. “This book is not for the faint hearted. It is not designed for bedtime reading, nor is it for casual believers who are contented with a Christian faith that offers peace and prosperity within the stained glass windows of a church ……..” – Foreword. Title – “Prophecy, Pansexuality and Pandemonium “. Solid food again !! Thank God for her.

    • The passion of the bishop
      After years of struggle with his faith and dispair at the church’s in-fighting and repressive attitude to sex, fomer bishop of Edinburgh Richard Holloway left religion behind.

      So since I know Thio Li Ann is not sin free( like me) – what is the solid food – it is just homophobia wrapped In a religious fundamentalist cloak.

      Do not forget, the “Church” was very much pro slavery, patriarch (anti feminist ) – TLA in pre1800 wud be considered u godly, trying to usurp Man’ s god given power and wud probably be executed like the early suffragettes – women died for their confictions. So why is TLA acting like the prior oppressors of women when her emancipation was bought so dearly.

      Methinks followers of Jesus need to discern and become gracious to those less fortunate.

      Decided to compose short poem

      Gongs follow Kongs
      Materially poorer now
      promised spiritual wealth future
      god bonds
      underwritten for sure
      give till it hurts
      arise and build
      see our suffering
      singing, dancing,sweating strutting jetting
      Hollywood Manhatten Nice
      More Gongs needed

  • @ Journeyman, 18 Aug 2013 at 01:43, …….

    There is a reason why the Lord Jesus Christ or God-in-the-flesh(1TIM.3:16, JOHN.1:1 & 14, MATT.1:23) did not mention much about homosexuality or incest or bestiality or pedophilia or …

    The Old Testament or Pentateuch or Torah is also called the Law and the Prophets.(MATT.5:17 & 22:40)
    The 4 Gospels is also called the Good News or Glad Tidings.

    If fallen-Man wanna know about sins/evil-deeds, they need to consult the Law.(ROM.7:7)
    Eg, at LEV.18:22-23, thru the prophet Moses, God stated that homosexuality and bestiality are abominable sins. Similarly, LEV.10:9 stated that drunkenness is a sin; DEUT.18:9-14 stated that consulting with occultic prophets of Satan is another abominable sin; EXO.20:1- stated that ……., etc.

    If fallen-Man wanna know about the way to heaven or to escape hell when they die, they need to consult the 4 Gospels, esp JOHN, who was the apostle who was the closest and most loved by Christ.

    It would hv been redundant for JC to enumerate about the Law again during His ministry on earth, which was recorded in the 4 Gospels.
    …….JC only mentioned the Law, in order to show that the obeying/keeping of the Law was not sufficient to bring the Jews to heaven or to escape hell.(MATT.5:17-48) Their inborn Adamic sin nature has to be atoned or cleansed by the blood of Jesus b4 fallen-Man could go to heaven to be with God the Father.(ROM.5:12, LEV.17:11)
    …….The Law only bring earthly blessings or curses from God on the lives of people while they are living on earth. Like water, the Law could only cleanse the hands and feet of the obedient from unclean/dirty sins or evil-deeds. The Law could not cleanse the hearts and minds of fallen-man.

    So, it would be very foolish for Christians to find the way to heaven by consulting the Law or to find out about sins by consulting the Gospels.

    Similarly, people do a search for facts on Google Search and watch interesting videos on Youtube. It would be very foolish for people to do a search for facts on Youtube or vice versa.

    I think the Grace of God would give a homosexual who has just converted, a few years to repent of the sin of homosexuality. Similarly for adulterers, idolaters, thieves, etc. They should not remain sinning sinners forever.
    …….At 1COR.6:9-11 and REV.21:15, thru His apostle and his Son, God had stated in His Word that unrepentant and practicing “Christian” homosexuals, adulterers, thieves, idolaters, sorcerers, etc will die unsaved.

    @ lyn …….Hello.!

    Peace.

  • 6 places in the Bible that talks about homosexuality etc, 3 in Old Testament and 3 in NT.- Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13 , Gen 19.

    1 Cor 6:9-10, 1 Tim 1:10 and Romans 1: 24-28.

  • Welcome back NP!

    Wah, we are all still stuck on this topic although blogpastor has moved on to other topics long ago.

    I do not know what your experiences are JT, but in my opinion, peace is a trademark of a Christian on the right track.

    As for true believers, I believe there is no escape the ‘repentance’ process, NP. You don’t have to worry too much about that because the Lord controls the journey.

    This is the parable in Matthew 13:31-32
    31 He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; 32 and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the [a]air come and nest in its branches.”

    This is the ‘Christian’ in every believer. It starts out as a mustard seed and when it is fully grown, it is the biggest tree supporting other lives.

    That is why the call for no judging. It is a process in the Lord’s timing.

    As for prosperity, I don’t think there is anything wrong to be rich and to prosper per se. It is really not a disqualification (for lack of a word) that people ask God to prosper them monetarily. At the end of the day though Matthew 13:44 should reign.

    Matthew 13:44

    “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.

    (And again the pearl thing)

    I use most of my wealth to serve the Lord. I traded in my Pradas and Gucci for true prosperity, to chase being the last so that I may be first in the kingdom of God…(may I be last in this world, O Lord).

    I seriously do not think making sexy videos qualifies as serving the Lord in any way tho..

    The Lord’s will is be, being done.. really… 🙂

  • @ lyn, 04 Sep 2013 at 09:35, …….Pls ponder deeply and Spirit’ually on this Holy Scripture. Hopefully repentance may follow;

    2THESS.2:1-12 = The Great Apostasy

    1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

    3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

    9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

  • @NP

    I will not be bothered to repeat what has been said before.

    The ‘man of sin’ is referring to the antichrist. We don’t know anything beyond this. Who is lawless, who is not..

    Lord Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. We are made righteous in Him by faith.

    2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV / 32 helpful votes

    For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

    The righteous of God cannot be the wicked (unrighteous) at the same time. This is schizophrenia.

    Abraham lived before the law and was righteous by faith.

    The verse immediately after is talking about believers.

    2 Thessalonians 2:13-17
    New International Version (NIV)
    Stand Firm

    13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits[a] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[b] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

    16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.

    and after that,

    2 Thessalonians 3
    New International Version (NIV)
    Request for Prayer

    3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen you and protect you from the evil one. 4 We have confidence in the Lord that you are doing and will continue to do the things we command. 5 May the Lord direct your hearts into God’s love and Christ’s perseverance.

    In verse 2, it says that the wicked and evil people are the ones who has not faith (not the ones who broke the law).

    In fulfilling the law and confirming all that the prophets has spoken before His coming, I believe the law is still relevant for our guidance to have a peaceful life. It is also schizophrenic to say that Lord Jesus had fulfilled the law and we could live not in accordance to it.

    But, this is not criteria of righteousness because we are under grace and not under law.

    Galatians 2:16 ESV
    Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

    So, when you are talking about repentance, how about those people who are abandoned by their spouses? or those with second marriages and children? How to repent of that sin? Or how about the illegitimate children? How do they repent of their parent’s sins? Or the kids who are abandoned by their parents, how to repent of the sin of never being able to honour their mom and dad? Or who amongst us love the Lord God with all our hearts, our souls and our minds (especially) and are we able to love our neighbors as ourselves?..How to repent of those sins?

    You cannot pick and choose repentance under law.

    Under grace, you are forgiven of all (those we can repent from and those we cannot) our sins.

    “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.” (Ephesians 1:7)

    So believers in the faith ought to relax for those who are saved by the Lord cannot also be against (antichrist) Him. To say otherwise is purely schizophrenic, I respectfully submit. 🙂

    • @ lyn, 05 Sep 2013 at 09:09, …….

      I’m glad that u’ve respectfully submitted.

      Now, start obeying the commandments/laws/Word of God/Jesus.
      …. : !

    • @ lyn, 05 Sep 2013 at 09:09, …….

      QUOTING you; “The ‘man of sin’ is referring to the antichrist. We don’t know anything beyond this. Who is lawless, who is not.. ”

      I do not think the ‘man of sin’ is referring to the antichrist.

      DEUT.18:15-19, ISA.7:14 & 9:6 had prophesied to the Jews about the coming of their Christ/Messiah/Prophet/Savior, who truly came at around 30AD, ie as the Lord Jesus.

      Consider these Holy Scriptures;

      JOHN.1:19-20 = [A Voice in the Wilderness]
      …….19 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”
      …….20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the CHRIST.”
      …….21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”
      He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.”
      …….22 Then they said to him, “Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?”
      …….23 He said: “I am ‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
      “Make straight the way of the Lord,”’(ISA.40:3) as the prophet Isaiah said.”

      JOHN.4:25-26 = 25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
      …….26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

      MATT.24:23-24 = 23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.”

      1JOHN.2:18-22 = [Deceptions of the Last Hour]
      …….18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
      …….19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
      …….20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
      …….22 Who is a liar but he who denies that JESUS IS THE CHRIST.? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
      _ _ _ _ _ _ _

      According to biblical history, at about 800BC, God cursed the Jews and their kings for their sins/evil-deeds(=breaking the laws/Word of God) and sent foreign empires to colonize them. Suffering under foreign colonization/rule, the Jews repented and thru His prophets, God promised them a coming Messiah/Christ/Savior to deliver/save them.

      It was while the repentant Jews were suffering under Roman rule, at about 30AD, that Jesus of Nazareth appeared on the scene and told the Jews that He was their Christ. Jesus the Christ wanted to give them a kingdom of heaven(MATT.4:17). But the Jews wanted their Christ to give them back their kingdom of earth, ie Israel.(JOHN.6:15)
      …….Cf the Zionist movement of the 1930s and the birth of Israel in 1949.

      Bc Jesus Christ did not hv any intention to rebel against the Roman rulers,(eg MATT.22:21) the Jews rejected Him as their Christ and ‘murdered’ Him as a heretic or false-christ/antichrist .

      Then, the Jews raised up false-christs/antichrists to lead them into armed rebellion against the Roman rulers. This culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem, the Holy Temple and massacre of the Jews in 70AD by the Roman Army.

      At LUKE.21:21-22, JC had prophesied and warned His apostles/disciples about this and to flee Judea when they see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies.

      At 1JOHN.2:18, the apostle John, as an early Jewish Christian, was referring to these false-christs/antichrists and the coming destruction of the Jewish world in 70AD as the last hour, ie the last hour for the Jews. After 70AD, the remaining Jews became mostly refugees and exiles bc the Jews were banished from Palestine.

      The antichrist/false-christ refers to events occurring around the 1st Coming of JC to earth. 2THESS.2 talked about the 2nd Coming of JC. Hence, the ‘man of sin’ is not referring to the antichrist/false-christ.

      At His 1st Coming, JC wanted to save the Jews from their sins(their inborn Adamic sin nature) and gift them the kingdom of heaven/God; NOT to save them from colonization and gift them the kingdom of Israel/Zion.
      …….True-Christ or false-christ/antichrist was predicated on this worldly or Spirit’ual desire. The carnal Jews wanted to fulfill their worldly desires, ie political power/self-rule, material wealth, pride and lust.
      …….Some Church leader/pastors are like these worldly Jews. Their god is Mammon.

      I think the ‘man of sin’ and ‘the lawless one’ are referring to those Church leaders who place little emphasis on the laws/Word of God(eg gay and woman bishops/pastors in a Church.?) and who practice lawlessness.(MATT.7:23)

      Besides them, REV also mentions about the beast and his false prophet appearing b4 the 2nd Coming of JC.

      How should people acknowledge Jesus of Nazareth when they meet Him at His 2nd Coming to earth.?
      …….As an ordinary prophet, as the antichrist, as the Christ, as the Son of God, as the Lord, as Almighty God or as the Father.?

      P S – From their Koran, the Muslims believe in the 2nd Coming of JC, but only as a powerful prophet(=al-Mahdi or Messiah) sent by their Allah to punish the non-Muslims.

  • I am glad you understand that you are under grace and not law NP, for those under law are cursed by it…..I would appreciate a counter argument based on biblical principles rather than a play of words unless you have now a better understanding of what true Christianity is all about.

    It is vital that you understand what the Lord Jesus has done for us for salvation comes only from Him.

    With all my love in Christ,
    lyn

    • Hi Justthinking,

      I am not trying to be rude with the usage of this word. But you must understand the nature of the law.

      The law is perfect

      James 2:10
      For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

      So an illegitimate child is automatically under the curse because of their parent’s sin (adultery). Just like if we buy illegal goods, it is considered stealing.

      And, we all the know the wages of sin is death.

      So such a person is immediately cursed by the law without even a chance of trying to keep it.

      There is only one way out (Praise You, O Lord)..

      Galatians 3:13
      13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is every one who hangeth on a tree”),

      The parents being born properly in wedlock is not considered illegitimate..

      lyn

      • @ lyn, 08/09/2013 at 6:18am, …….

        QUOTE;

        “So, when you are talking about repentance, how about those people who are abandoned by their spouses? or those with second marriages and children? How to repent of that sin? Or how about the illegitimate children? How do they repent of their parent’s sins? Or the kids who are abandoned by their parents, how to repent of the sin of never being able to honour their mom and dad? Or who amongst us love the Lord God with all our hearts, our souls and our minds (especially) and are we able to love our neighbors as ourselves?..How to repent of those sins?

        You cannot pick and choose repentance under law.

        Under grace, you are forgiven of all (those we can repent from and those we cannot) our sins.”
        _ _ _ _ _ _ _

        I think you are quite hung-up on yr family problems/sins, ie yr “Muslim” mum and sisters.
        …….I’m trying to state facts/truth which may sound convicting or hateful. Hopefully, no stones will be thrown.

        I think the root cause of yr family problems was yr Catholic mum breaking the laws/Word of God by socializing with non-Catholics/Christians, then ignorantly ‘marrying’ an already-married Muslim man and having 6 kids with him(???).

        It was an illegitimate marriage with disastrous consequences. I think yr mum must hv been smitten by the handsome Eurasian Muslim “playboy” and got blinded by love, similar to the crazy K-pop fangirls drooling over the handsome male idols.

        The Jews and Christians hv been commanded by God to not socialize or hv close relationship with the Non’s.(Kosher food laws, MATT.10:5, 2COR.6:14, GAL.2:12)
        …….If yr mum had obeyed God/Jesus and married a fellow Catholic or Christian, she would not hv ended up, the way she did.
        …….Even the “wild” Chinese Gentiles hv a common saying, “A girl should never marry the wrong man and a boy should never enter the wrong profession.”

        In cases of marriage and profession, once the choice is made and the deed is done, the consequences may be life long, either good or evil/bad.(DEUT.28)
        …….Repenting afterwards of the bad or evil choice/deed does not change the curse/punishment/consequences of the Law, unless Lord Jesus Christ intervenes by giving His pardon/clemency, eg by affecting events. Such pardons are rarely given.

        In general, God/Jesus allows the Law to run its course. People should live their life on earth guided by the Law, like good law-abiding citizens. They should not purposely ignore and break the Law, then desperately seek pardon from God/Jesus while suffering for their sins/evil-deeds/crimes.

        You were adopted by their 3rd “Muslim” daughter and brought into this cursed and illegitimate Muslim/Catholic family. It was also a sin/evil-deed for yr biological parents to abandon you, esp into such a problematic family.

        I think what yr mum did was similar to what Ariel Castro did, ie the Catholic Hispanic American who kidnapped and locked up 3 young girls as his sex-slaves. Both were cursed/sentenced to “life imprisonment” for their law-breaking or sin/evil-deed. Yr mum suffered in a life-long illegitimate marriage.
        …….I think Ariel Castro repented that he got caught. That was why he committed suicide, which is another sin/evil-deed, ie “Thou shalt not murder …ownself.”(EXO.20:13)

        What people are born into, is the product of their DNA or a family inheritance, eg their race, religion, looks, physique, intelligence, natural talents, etc.

        The Word of God also says that people hv also inherited the curses of Adam’s original sin/evil-deed and may also hv inherited the curses of their forefathers’ sins/evil-deeds, up to the 4th generation or up to their great-great grandparents.(EXO.20:5) Eg women hv to give birth in pain, men hv to slog for a living, both hv to contend with Satan and suffer Spirit’ual death(=end up in hell), etc.
        …….Adam got conned by Satan, like yr mum got conned by a Eurasian Muslim man.

        People need to accept the curses of God’s Law and their evil/sinful inheritance, repent and then react/respond appropriately, esp for the curse of their inborn Adamic sin nature to be cleansed by the Blood of Jesus, so that they may inherit the kingdom of heaven/God.
        …….They should accept the sins/evil-deeds of their parents and foreparents, understand their adverse self and family situations. and avoid repeating the same sins or mistakes.

        It would be nice if people inherit S$millions, good genes/DNA and good families from their parents and foreparents, eg PM Lee Hsien Loong, Fan Bing Bing, Bill Gates, etc.
        _ _ _ _ _ _ _

        GAL.3:9-11 = 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
        ……10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
        ……11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

        I think Paul was directing this epistle at the Jews and Jewish Christians bc Abraham was mentioned.
        …….B4 the 1st Coming of JC to earth, the Jews believed that they were going to heaven by believing in God and obeying Moses Law, ie justified by the Law for salvation. After rejecting Jesus as their Christ, the Jews still held on to their wrong belief.
        …….If the Jews choose to reject faith in JC and seek to be justified by the Law, then the moment they intentionally or ignorantly break any law of Moses, they are no more justified by the Law and will be headed for hell. This was how Paul had used the Jews’ wrong belief to show that the Law had become a curse for them, instead of a heavenly blessing.
        _ _ _ _ _ _ _

        Let’s look at the story of the 2 robbers who were crucified with Jesus, in order to understand repentance and forgiveness/pardon.

        LUKE.23:39-43(also MATT.27:38) = 39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”
        …….40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
        …….43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
        – – – – – – –

        The 1st robber did not believe that Jesus was the Christ and insulted Him. The 2nd robber believed in JC, accepted his death sentence as just and repented of his sin of robbery.
        …….In the end, all 3 were crucified and died. The 1st robber ended up in hell. The repentant 2nd robber ended up in Paradise/heaven bc he believed.
        …….Notice that even though the 2nd robber repented, he still had to suffer the curse of the Law for his sin/evil-deed and died on the crucifix. Jesus did not forgive or pardon his sin of robbery. But Jesus forgave his inborn Adamic sin, enabling him to go to heaven after he died.

        In this case, under Grace, his inherited Adam’s original sin was forgiven; but under the Law, his sin of robbery was not forgiven/pardoned.
        _ _ _ _ _ _ _

        In the Gospels, those who were healed and delivered from the curses of the Law, had their sins/evil-deeds forgiven by Jesus/God. Eg the epileptic, deaf and blind, paralytics, etc.
        …….This is similar to the President of Singapore having the secular/govt power and authority to pardon convicted criminals, esp to commute the death sentence. This power is seldom exercised.
        …….Similarly, God/Jesus, the King of Kings, seldom exercised His power of pardon(=withdraws His curses of the Law=forgiveness) during the 6,000 years of human history.

        Imagine how Singapore would end up if the President willy-nilly pardon every repentant criminal and set them free.
        …….Many criminals gamble with their lives that they won’t get caught. Some of them only repent after they get caught. It is a fact that not every murder or robbery case is solved.

        In the secular world, for serious crimes like murder and drug-trafficking, there are seldom a 2nd chance at life, ie being pardoned by Presidents or Kings = lost the gamble of life.
        …….Similarly, in the Spirit’ual world, for serious sins/evil-deeds like adultery and consulting with bomohs/mediums, there are seldom a 2nd chance at life.
        …….Like the repentant 2nd robber, their only hope left may be Jesus/God, eg “Christians” who hv sinned and are dying of terminal cancer, ie if they did not curse God and died.

        JOHN.14:1-6 says that people could only go to heaven and come to Father God thru Jesus. In other words, the curse for Adam’s original sin(GEN.3) could be forgiven/pardoned thru Jesus.
        …….The curse/punishments for intentional sins/evil-deeds could not be forgiven/pardoned by Jesus/God, except in very special circumstances.(HEB.10:26-31)
        _ _ _ _ _ _ _

        Adam’s original sin brought forth 2 types of curses for mankind;
        1. The curse of Spirit’ual death or hell for their inborn Adamic sin nature,(ROM.5:12) ie the inner or unseen sinful/evil thoughts committed by their hearts and minds, eg hate, lust, envy, worry, etc.(MARK.7:21)
        2. The curse/punishment of the Law for the sins/evil-deeds committed by their hands, feet and bodies, eg murder, adultery, stealing, etc.

        The 1st curse cannot be avoided. Fallen-Man are all bound for hell.
        …….The 2nd curse can be avoided, ie by obeying the laws/Word of God or the laws of the land. If not, the curses/punishments of the Law follows. Repentance for sins/evil-deeds/crimes seldom get pardoned by Lord Jesus or the lord of the land.

        Peace.

        • I wonder whether your wife often tells you this but I find it very hard to talk to you NP ah.. 🙂
          Anyway, Praise God for you, keep it comin’, keep it comin’..:)
          John 9:3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
          May all Your precious works be displayed in me, O Lord..Amen

          • @ lyn …….

            DEUT.19:15 = One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

            MATT.4:17 = From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “REPENT, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

            MATT.9:2 = Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”

            JOHN.5:14 = Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”

            JOHN.8:11 = And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

            Etc.
            _ _ _ _ _ _ _

            The case of the innocent/sinless blind from birth who was healed by Jesus/God, at JOHN.9:1-3, was an exception to the rule.

            Thru no sin/evil-deed of theirs or their forefathers, some innocent people are born abnormal/defective bc of pollution or the consumption of toxic food/water/medicine or other environmental factors.(=accidental or being unlucky)
            …….Some innocent people hv been paralyzed by drunk drivers or reckless drivers or careless/inexperienced drivers.
            …….The love of God/JC compelled JC to also heal these innocent sufferers, besides those usual ones who had been cursed by the Law for their sins/evil-deeds.(DEUT.28:15)

            Peace.

          • Hi NP,

            Yesterday, the electricity in my house was out for a whole day..I miss you already.

            It’s always a pleasure to interact with you NP ah.

            I write my best, I find, when I’m writing to you. I always imagine you sitting at your computer in your flowing white robe, writing your latest judgement. Don’t write so much about my family. You know on the other side is a girl who cries easily (sometimes wetting my whole shirtfront) listening to your latest judgements and curses. 🙂

            However, I still write because I need to prepare my teaching and also because I love you, NP ah. I pray that your family is all well and healthy otherwise you’ll put them under such heavy judgement and accusations as well. Very pitiful, you know.

            NP, in all your writings you ignore what I write totally. But I’m easily bored and will not repeat myself. You are very lopsided in your evaluation of people and their fallen state. You ignore a large portion of the Bible especially about God’s love and forgiveness which is the very essence of Christianity.

            Which is more powerful to you, God’s love or our sins?

            You read ‘go and sin no more’ (as if anyone can do that) and you totally ignore the first statement ‘neither do I condemn you’.

            God is LOVE, 1 John 4:16, first and foremost. His story is that His Son came down to suffer and die for an undeserving and sinful people out of love for them, NP..He is Grace and He is Truth (not law). We must flow with this in order to understand God.

            And by the power of the Holy Spirit, Paul wrote this about love

            1 Corinthians 13:4-8
            New International Version (NIV)
            4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

            8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

            and

            Romans 5:8
            But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

            Even Jesus in His earthly ministry walked and ate with sinners. They were His pals. Does this make any sense to you?

            The ‘lawkeepers’ or Pharisees are the ones our gentle Saviour cursed abundantly with many colourful words like ‘snake’ and ‘brood of vipers’ (an indication of satan himself in the garden). Yet the Bible states that Jesus is without sin.

            If He is so pleased with law keeping why did He cursed the Pharisees? They cared nothing about the heart yet outwardly they seemed to be perfect.

            This is what Jesus said about them..

            Luke 18:9-14
            New International Version (NIV)
            The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

            9 To some who were confident of their **own righteousness** and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed:

            **‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’**

            13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, **‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’**

            14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

            Does your prayer sound at all like the first man’s? Then you’d better repent.
            Otherwise, you’ll be humbled by the Lord.

            Start praying like the second man because that’s what the Lord will exalt. He admits he is a sinner.

            In our case though, the Bible says..

            Hebrews 4:15 says “For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin”

            Hebrews 10:26 is referring to people who ‘deliberately keep on sinning’. I have a friend like this. He was a leader but took girlfriend after girlfriend with his wife’s knowledge and taunting his wife that he is having the greatest time of his life with his girlfriends. Not wanting to leave his wife due to fear of suicide, he carries on the affair unrepentantly.

            Even then, who am I to judge?

            The rest of us however does not fall under this verse although we continue to sin due to our weaknesses. We pray about these things though. When there is breakthrough, it’s a very beautiful thing. Due to my background I have difficulty loving others. I have been praying about this and today, I love you even, NP. Wah, talk about breakthrough!

            The New Covenant
            *******************

            Hebrews 8:11,12
            No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

            This is the new covenant, NP..whether you like it or not.

            God bless you abundantly,
            lyn

  • Hi NP,

    I have no interest whatsoever to speculate about who the ‘man of sin’ or the ‘lawless man’ is. It is not my place to judge church leaders and put such heavy accusations against them. God is in control of all His children and whatever they go through. All I can do is to write about Christianity as the Holy Spirit leads me.

    lyn

  • @lynn- The parents are illegitimate if they are legally not a married couple , doesnt matter their birth. The child is not illegitimate , they are. Based, on the Bible, All are cursed even though there is a way out. There is also a difference between stolen goods and counterfeit goods. Best not to use the term. On wealth, there is no issue with it ,nothing wrong with money. The passage you use seems to talk more about the our stewardship of talent and resources given to us by God. There are many things spoken on wealth/money in the bible, more than heaven and hell combined. But Jesus also said wealth is deceitful. – Mark 4:19, There is something about wealth and money ( even though there is nothing wrong with it) that we must take note too, when Jesus said it is easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to come to know the Lord. Just a thought .

    • @JT
      Erroneous logic on your part – how can illegitimate parents have legitimate progenies – in less enlighten and gracious days such children were called bastards and ostracized by fundamentalist christian religious folks – if you look at English statutes and common law, the term is still use. Similarly we have Section 377A in Singapore (also w English heritage) for gays even though we have not prosecuted anyone recently with it.

      Similarly we have apostasy laws ins one muslim countries which makes it a crime to utter “ALLAH” for any “God” except the one Islam recognizes. The Shiites do not recognize the Sunnis as “Muslim” hence all the hatred and war in Mid East countries. Many mistake sectarian violence as democratic awakening – witness Libya, Emirates, Syria, maybe even Turkey and Egypt. The other more peaceful ones are bought at the price of violent suppression away from media glare.

      So how does one go about recognizing “gays” unless there is a self confession or caught with their pants down gratifying themselves – the rest is by guessed by vicarious means eg like Liberace – he show successfully for defamation and awarded substantial damages. This is akin to trying proving one’s faith.

      So how wud u judge a woman who exhibited “manly body language” dressed in pants with short crop hair, having mainly female friends who are ultra feminine. Know of many church goers who wud fit this description – sure u will find them in yr Church also if assembly is a few hundred strong.

      If the ultimate aim of some pastors is to create friction points with a multi cultural, multi ethnic societies, then expect one of these days to be persecuted for our “strange beliefs” – like Jehovah’s witness – any religious group can be labelled a “cult” and can be banned quite easily – just depends on the politics at the time.

      Since we all live in glass houses, suggest Xtians be tolerant and respectful as u expect others to do the same to you. Many are breaking the law in using industrial buildings/residential houses for their church assemblies – sud some group try to stop this as must as the Love Singapore Church group??

      Intolerance will beget intolerance, violence will do the same – maybe love is the only way.

      Practice whatever strange customs your group desires within your own meeting sanctuary, provided it is not unlawful or cruel to your heart content and I would not have

      So since Jesus had mostly men followers what you can your assumption be?

  • Hi Justthinking,

    The point I’m trying to make overall is that we cannot know completely know about the kingdom of God. It is all too big for us.

    The ‘grace’ / ‘faith’ people will say that their ways are the best. Those inclined towards ‘law’ will say their beliefs are the only one that’s right. Those who believe in ‘prosperity’ are able to prove their beliefs from the scriptures. And those who don’t would argue from the same Bible that wealth is deceitful.

    But who knows anything at all at the end of the day?

    1 Samuel 16:7
    For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.

    By shouting ‘Grace, Grace’ probably the grace people are more likely to keep the law due to their softheartedness towards the Lord.

    By being more governed by law, the Lord would probably see the sincerity of the ‘law’ people in wanting to please Him with their lives.

    Since we cannot see what goes on in the heart of another, I think it is best we hold our judgement.

    Whilst we are slinging mud and judging who’s right and who’s wrong, we are neglecting the only thing that He asked us to do..

    John 13:34-35
    New International Version (NIV)
    34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

    After all, the one who sang ‘Kill Bill’ is also the same one who sang ‘You are for me’ so beautifully, I could not stop crying.

    At the end of the day, only God knows the truth, really.

    We should let Him decide.

    Just a few thoughts..

    • @JT, NP & Lyn
      Maybe at the end of the day – what is real n rational is the only way of approximating “truth” – our “truths” are by nature “conditonal” – holds only within a defined circumstance and conditons………”truths” sud be provable n somewhat predictable and repeatble – eg if somebody asked unto give to God thru them is this real or a Con for a gong?

      Or if an inner voice asked u to jump from 5 stories and you will not be hurt or killed – how sure are u that is not God but a faulty circuit in yr computer.

      Or give till it hurts even when u r w/o income by a charismatic orator so that u may arise n build but uses it to live like the rich and famous? How real is this?

      Or a homophobe asking u to persecute another for their gender orientation on the basis of a metaphorical manuscript that is selectively interpreted

      Or an illusionist who espouses values he himself does not Practise? Seems like some animals are more equal than others.

      Or another who is intolerant about another’s beliefs and takes of fence when his own is ridulculed?

      Or to be blessed is to be gloriously rich and depended on how much u “give” to God
      this is the God of all creation but needs fait currency???? If this isn’t a DECEPTIVE n FALSE, what is.

      Be aware of our own planks when we try to pick out the specks in other bro or sis eyes lest we blind them in the process.

      • @ Journeyman …….

        JOHN.8:31-36 = [The Truth Shall Make You Free]

        31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

        33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

        34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.”
        _ _ _ _ _ _ _

        Followers of Christ should not be slaves of sin/evil-deed. The Word of truth shall set them free from the slavery of sin.
        …….When set free from the slavery of sin, they are adopted as sons of God thru faith in Christ.(=the Word) Thereafter, they become sons of righteousness, righteousness in deeds and in Christ.(1JOHN.3:7)

        Peace.

  • @Lynn – I didnt make any judgement or guess like what you did as to who may obey the Lord more, whether “the grace people or law people ? ( dont really know what that means) . I mentioned there are no issues with wealth but we must be mindful of what Jesus said as well in the scriptures with regards to wealth. I didnt sling mud or judge who is right or wrong but I wouldnt make it as though the Bible is misleading — since no one knows except God, why read the bible then. I am quite surprised at your reaction to what i have written. You may want to read again. I read again to see where i was mud slinging and judging ? Quite blurr la.

  • @JM. You obviously miss the point. Anyway you first must die first before you find life isnt too logical too. No pastor made any homophobic comments. You still dont understand the difference between homosexuality and the homosexual agenda. I think it has written before in this blog.The government understands it and anecdotally the many people i talk to in the corp world understands it esp those with families. The agenda is basically to mainstream, normalise the lifetstyle as an alternative lifestyle and then celebrate it. This is the 1st step which is basically to move from tolerance to acceptance. Then …. they will not stop and … same sex marriage , rights etc . Basically attack the basic family unit which ia a mother, father and children. Non christians understand that. For christians it is an attempt to break the core of a family started by God ( God’s Order of Creation) in Genesis and its a diabolical movement. Just look at the some of the end products in the west esp USA and you will understand the serious repurcussions if we allow them to push their agenda in the name of diversity, inclusiveness, tolerance etc. New Jersey US just signed a bill prohibiting teenagers struggling with sexual orietation to seek couuselling. A fe w months ago France and NZ became the 13th and 14th countries to legalise same sex marriage. As a citizen i dont want this to happen in Singapore esp those with families. I am not even talking about christians. I also dont want to see blogpastor being sued for standing up to truth and refusing to conduct a same sex marriage in his church.JM, i strongly urge you adopt an open mind and read Dr Li Ann Thio’s lastest book. Its a challenge to take a stand, a cry for truth and a call to spiritual battle. Basically what we are seeing is lawlessness which the bible has forewarned us in Matthew and Isaiah5:20. After that you will appreciate whats happening alot more. Thanks.

    • @JT,
      Believe every collective grouping of human will have an agenda,whilst some may be more ambitious in trying to make their beliefs values more “fashionable or universal.” The “church” will also have an agenda from the altruistic to the bizarre like “tithing” so that pastors can issue perpetual non-redeemable bonds to fund a lifestyle for recording media that will never be released that will “save” thousands ……and still have integrity??

      Like your call for truths, so where is the compelling data and working models that will persuade me that a majority of “fundamentalist(literalistic bible readers) , evangelical (conversationalist) pentecostals(spiritual revivalist)” are not homophobic?

      Lets define term HOMO/PHOBIC
      Homo – reference to ape genus, Man is in this group, so we mean “human”
      PHOBIA – latin for MORBID FEAR
      together, the term means fear of other humans – in common usage it is often refers to fear of homosexuals. I refer to the former for this discussion.

      I think I have a “fairly” open mind – trying not to prejudge “new” things even though cognitively, the need for “frameworks” and “working models” does limit ones ability to become a “better human.”

      Some countries with LBGT legislation have better social/crime stats than Singapore eg Finland, New Zealand,
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory
      some that have anti LBGT legislation like Russia, Zimbabwe Iran are terrible social/crime rates. As u wud surmised, this is a spurious. agruement at best and seems to be grounded in ignorance and fear.

      Maybe Coretta King sums up my position best…
      In a 1998 address, author, activist, and civil rights leader Coretta Scott King stated that “Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood.”

      Can u keep an open mind you are commending to me?

    • #JT
      Provided the stated truth is an objective(data points),
      verifiable,predictable and repeatable eg statements like Sun will rise at 7-100 tomorrow in Singapore or complete eclipse for X mins at GPS position Y or such and such a date. When u have a 2000 year old manuscript translated authored and translated by unknowns, I would not push that on on believers, despite what my own beliefs are – that I leave to God oe somebody allows me to share my faith and journey narrative.

      Methinks this leads to a more gracious transformation of the community I live in and that creates a more abundant life for my neighbors and me.

      Ultimately, the TRUTH will set you free.

      • erratum correction….w apologies

        on NON.. believers, despite what my own beliefs are – that I leave to God OR….. somebody allows me to share my faith and journey narrative

  • Thanks JM for your comments. I will avoid the analysis till paralysis syndrome. The LGBT movement/agenda is clear and it is a globally funded movement. Our govt knows and understand it. The church of Spore is beginning to understand it and makes a stand. Once explained , people in the corp world appreciates it as well and the majority of the people esp those with families ( younger children and also teenagers) do no want this as an alternate lifestyle. We need to spread and share the message so that the masses will not unknowingly be drawn to support the agenda in the name of diversity, inclusion, tolerance etc.For christians, reading the Dr Li Ann Thios’ sbook will bring us up the learning curve. The fallacies of the common arguments used by the LGBT activists like we should accept all people irrespective of their sexual orientation and born this way must be explained and exposed.We need to do this as citizens of the country and also as corp citizens, parents and last but not least christians. The issue is not about tolerance but what we should tolerate. As mentioned many times, when i share with non christians they understood it quite well and fast because it is quite clear. At the end of the day, there will always be some who genuinely cant appreciate /comprehend and genuinely dont bother and there will be some who chose not to understand. We must not allow what has happened in the west to happen to Spore. The silent majority must speak up and stand up.For deep analysis and explanation from the biblical, philopsophical and legal angle,go to Dr Thio.

  • Perhaps before one becomes a zealot for any human cause, just take a lesson from history – the oppressed become oppressors when the fashion wheel turns around. The Christians were persecuted until Constatine became the first “Holy Roman Emeperor” – guess what happened – the Christians started persecuting others and waged war (crusades) – the Jews were persecuted for many years until they gained their homeland, guess what they are doing to the Palestinians – only attempt to break this vicious cycle of vengeance and revenge has been Gandhi and Mandela – they have been closest to the the Jesus way of forgiving and embracing once enemies so that peace and reconciliation can occur. Guess if everybody was as zealous as TLA, somebody will could
    be setting off an IED or IDME (improvised device of mass extinction) because their had to justify their believes – think Aum_Shinrikyo and the 1995 sarin gas attack in Tokyo.

    intolerance negate more intolerance and can be easily escalated to never ending violence – careful what u wish for.

    Satirical comments by Atans…….http://atans1.wordpress.com/2013/09/18/oppressed-to-oppressor-pastor-khong-describes-christianitys-evolution-not-the-gays-agenda/

    the spectacle of Kong and Khong makes – one hanging on to a concept of integrity and the other to high moral values that contravenes the law of the land – are these the credible salt and light – does not cut it for me.

  • Hi JM,

    Christianity is one sense a relationship with God that we may choose to have. Once we choose this relationship, we have given the green light to God to come alive within us and to counsel us through the Holy Spirit. I believe that if we do not want His counsel, then we can choose out of this relationship and we can pursue whatever interests we have.

    Our relationship with God is like a relationship with our spouses as well. He does things to show that he loves her. She does things to show him that she is faithful.

    When we choose to have this relationship with God, there are ways in which we live that proves that we belong to God.

    Just like when He chose us, He showed us His love for us when He endured heartless and endless scourging, nailed, bloodied and naked to the Cross and died, humiliated and all alone.

    He did this so that we can be reconciled to a thrice-Holy God so that through His sacrifice we can have eternal life in Christ Jesus.

    I guess many Christians are very interested in this eternal life for themselves and their loved ones rather than the temporary pleasures of this world ya, JM.

    If my one of my kids were to come home one day and tells me that she is gay, I would love her and accept her wholeheartedly but I’ll pray endlessly that she chooses a different path for herself. I don’t think I’m a homophobic at all. It’s just that I’m of the opinion that there’s a much bigger issue at stake here.

    If I had married a man who tells me he loves me but he lives out his life contrary to his confession, I would know that He does not love me.

    It’s the same with God and us, JM. This is not about intolerance. This is about trusting that He loves us and that His ways are best for the people He has created.

    lyn
    http://lynchristianblog.blogspot.hk/

  • Hi JT and NPc…commend to you

    Sister Teresa Forcades: Europe’s most radical nun
    By Matt Wells……..

    Her 10-point programme, drawn up with economist Arcadi Oliveres, calls for:

    • A government takeover of all banks and measures to curb financial speculation

    • An end to job cuts, fairer wages and pensions, shorter working hours and payments to parents who stay at home

    • Genuine “participatory democracy” and steps to curb political corruption

    • Decent housing for all, and an end to all foreclosures

    • A reversal of public spending cuts, and renationalisation of all public services

    • “Green” economic policies and the nationalisation of energy companies

    • An end to xenophobia and repeal of immigration laws

    • Placing public media under democratic control, including the internet

    • International “solidarity”, leaving Nato, and the abolition of armed forces in a future free Catalonia

    On the church

    Sister Teresa believes the Roman Catholic church should be thoroughly modernised for the 21st Century. She thinks women priests should be welcomed, and that gay people should be allowed to serve openly in the church. An individual’s right to control their own body, including a woman’s right to decide over abortion Pope Francis should be judged, she thinks, on how the Women Religious – which includes the majority of nuns in the United States – are treated by the Vatican.

    for more…http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24079227

    I think this is what being a credible “SaLT AND LIGHT TO THE WORLD” means – not distorted and manipulated THEOLOGY to enrich one’s own lifestyle or power base. The sad thing is somebody will probably kill her for being a credible threat to embedded interest or power, just like Jesus was.

  • ……. There is no neutral ground , nor virtue in neutrality, as “not to take a stand is a stand.” As Dante Alighieri , author of Divine Comedy wrote : ” the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of moral crisis , maintain their neutrality . — Prophecy, pansexuality and pandemonium – Li- Ann Thio.

    • You right, there is no NEUTRAL ground, only NATURAL ground. Humans are the only animal inhibiting this space gifted with cognitive intelligence, enabling conceptualization and ability to become the dominant life form through knowledge acquisition and inventive technologies. We have started to impact NATURE like no other animal for better or worse. Neutrality is an arbitrary intermediates between polar extremes, whereas nature views sex as a continuum. Maybe asexual cloning technologies will resolve this unnatural preoccupation with SEX by some religious theologists!

      To persecute and prosecuting another because of poverty, health, sex, religious beliefs or ethnicity would be a retrograde step for a 21st century society.

      “Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive.”
      – Dalai Lama.

      Sad that those who have professed the sermon on the mount can be so lacking in humanity.

      “If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other.”
      ― Mother Teresa

      Divinity without humanity is curse on the human race, never mind the sexuality of its constituents.

  • The Jesuit Pope Francis gave an insightful reply.

    “A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality,…. I replied with another question: ‘Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person. ….Here we enter into the mystery of the human being. ….In life, God accompanies persons, and we must accompany them, starting from their situation. It is necessary to accompany them with mercy ” Pope Francis

    “Who am I to judge a gay person of goodwill who seeks the Lord?”…. “You can’t marginalize these people.” Pope Francis

    • Sorry but Illusionist-Pastor (or vice-versa) and the learned TLA and many evangelical, charismatic, fundamentalist Christians would disagree – we must prosecute and persecute these aberrant homo sapiens because their sex orientation will bring down God’s wrath – they might even infect “US” with their perversion. Maybe while we are thinking about treats to society, how about other aberrant physical, intellectual and religious – maybe even political.

      BTW, agree with Pope Francis. If he can do the miracle of cleansing the Catholic church of its embedded corrupt practices (sexism, mammonism and power politics) it wud be a great sanctuary for meek, oppressed poor, persecuted and truth seekers.

      • @ jm says:
        23/09/13 at 2:20 pm, …….

        # GEN.6:3-8 = 3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

        4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

        5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

        6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

        7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

        8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

        # GEN.18:17-21 = 17 And the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, 18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

        19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice, that the Lord may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.”

        20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

        # GEN.19:12-13 = [Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed]

        12 Then the men said to Lot, “Have you anyone else here? Son-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whomever you have in the city—take them out of this place!

        13 For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the Lord, and the Lord has sent us to destroy it.”

        # LUKE.17:15-17 = 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

        26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

  • @GL . Absolutely right and that’s why from the start the church of Singapore made it clear to make a distinction and understand the difference between homosexuality and the homosexual agenda. As citizens , corp citizens and as Christians we need to understand that clearly and demolish the arguments used by the activists to subtly draw people to support the agenda.

  • Not sure where you find them promoting persecution of homosexuals . Hope at least after the recent discourse more will understand the AGENDA which is a global one and will not be drawn subtly, innocently and unknowingly into the agenda in the name of inclusion, pluralism, tolerance , diversity etc. It’s the agenda not individuals. But there will always be some who refuse to be corrected and understand the agenda.

    • @@JT
      Maybe going back to fundamental,entails might help…

      tr.v. per·se·cut·ed, per·se·cut·ing, per·se·cutes
      1. To oppress or harass with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs.
      2. To annoy persistently; bother.

      To say one is only against the “homosexual agenda” but not against the homosexual is like saying Christianity can be separated from the Bible. Hate like love starts from a small seed – it ultimately consumes and transform its progenitor.

      Whilst I neither Practise or condone homosexuality, I wud defend their constituional human rights so that my own rights are not abused. Just remember the “good Christians” of Germany during 1920-1950 – they justified extermination of Jews, disabled children and adults, practiced eugenics and all the inferio “coloureds” and their political enemies. check the “Nazi T4 PROGOM”

      Do remember Christians were persecuted in the past and we should not be today’s persecutors. End with a typical quote by Roman elites

      “If the Tiber rises too high, or the Nile too low, the remedy is always feeding Christians to the lions.”
      ― Tertullian

      Neither pastor-illusionist or the Church sud indulge – today’s peacock is tomorrow’s feather duster. Lets try to be gracious less others impose their beliefs upon us.

  • In Sodom and Gomorrah, God destroyed all the men, along with All the women and children. It was everyone of whom then and today would be majority 95% straight people. Why?

    The men were not only worshiping Satan but joining themselves to become one flesh with Satan through anal sex with the temple priests. Sex is one of the most powerful way to join two flesh together like in marriage. In this case, they were married to Satan.

    Hence, it was an utter abomination. Therefore, when they return home to be in bed with their wives, the demonic spirit within will possess the family.

    Therefore, God destroyed everything including all the buildings and places of idol worship, because the Satanic spirit was intricately bound to the city. They were no longer themselves but governed by the Spirit of darkness. There ALL were killed including all the women and children of whom some liberals would see as innocent and God seemingly blood thirsty. But God had to destroy the entire city before it spreads to other cities.

    Therefore, when the Angel of the Lord came in discretely to visit Lot to bring him out of the danger zone, the whole city including women and children moved in because the had the same spirit of anti-Christ.

    It happened before the Cross of Calvary, and on this side of the Cross we should not be persecuting innocent children for their God would be asking us an account for it, and we should not mention Sodom and Gomorrah for even these abominable people were more righteous than those who had rejected Jesus in person.

    Therefore, ask ourselves today, who are we joining to? which spirit of the world we are having sex with? money, power, control? even religion that is devoid of the centrality of Christ.

  • The OT God was misogynistic, vengencful, jealous, had “favorites” and treated most of his prophets quite badly (in a human terms) – so what to make of all these conflicting attributes and had HE loves us!
    Am absolutely sure that there is not a single SIN free human in this universe and hence noboby has a claim to position higher on God’s totem pole.; not pastor, doctor pope or sheep. Seems to me it is all about bragging rights who has a slighter lighter shade of gay (or gray?)

    Lets us not give Satan too much credit or blame him/her for consequences our bad decisions or desires. We have free choice remember?

    Gambling, prostitution, slavery are often tolerated by contemporary society and its religious institutions.
    Xenophobia, homophobia, sexism, religious, intolerance or bigotry are not hallmarks of a gracious and enlighten society.

  • Gamblers, prostitutes , drug addicts etc do not go about mainstreaming , normalizing their lifestyle and promote it as an alternative lifestyle and celebrating it . That’s the difference. And that’s why I mentioned when explained , people understand it and I am not talking about Christians and the key thing is the west esp US provides excellent egs of how allowing the agenda has caused the country to deteriorate to the current situation. Go and find out what’s happening in Massachusetts. We don’t want that to happen in Singapore. Put aside Christianity . The majority will not want our country to go down the path of these countries. Go and find out more and you will realize that even religious freedom is lost in some of the states in the US. But I do also understand there will be some who refuse to acknowledge and understand the agenda and put it away as a trivial matter. It’s ok . besides Dr Thio, check out John Rankin , Scott Lively as it helps us to appreciate the situation more. We need to educate as many as possible as the LGBT agenda is still relatively new in Singapore . In the corp world in Singapore, 10 years ago even the MNCs do not have the diversity agenda ESP LGBT. Today it’s different and it is normal for most of us not to be up to speed on this issue. But we need to be aware and learn and understand otherwise many will unknowingly and innocently be drawn into supporting the agenda. Even the non Christians appreciate when this was shared to them and please remember no religious beliefs is brought into it. But I appreciate the church of Singapore taking a stand on it and to explain it . I am not a homophobe , I have very good gay friends with “husbands” but they don’t push the agenda. From the Christian standpoint, we must love the LGBTs as they struggle with their sexual orientation and help them and COOS has a great ministry in this. But for the activists who push their agenda , we must stand up and oppose .

  • @JT,
    Congratulations on being a decent human being on an personal level, but at the religious collective level you seem to approve of being homophobic because you are afraid that the homosexual agenda wud become mainstream. This pathological fear of the future does not do justice to an omnipotent, omnipresent GOD you profess to follow.

    Found this help in my own journey, might switch on something for you.
    “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth” (John 4:24).

    Coming back to the points you raised…
    For about 95years to about 1945s, JEWS were not a problem – they WERE THE PROBLEM (the looney right and NAZIs thought they were the cause of hyperinflation and all the associated societal miseries (In modern day, think Greece(Golden Dawn Party), Spain, Italy, France and all the other high deficit countries). Hitler came to power because he managed to convince, “ordinary, unthinking, undiscerning decent Christian Germans to go along” because he was charismatic and a great public orator, not unlike some of the mega church (megalomaniac) pastors in our churches around the world. Guess what? They almost destroyed the world with a great big war, waged by a strange collection of bedfellows.

    Racism still exist despite having a “Black American President” (despite the fact he is ethnically 50 white;50 black!) – wonder which ethnic group has an agenda? Imagine if we had allowed the “Mainstream” KKK clan and Southern Baptist to continue having their ways till now – “chinks” will still be “laundry workers and railroad engineers.”

    So what is happening at Mass, USA?

    Social and hedonistic mayhem. bordering on anarchy. This is not a single etiology situation, it is an approaching perfect storm of converging economic and social inequities. IMHO, This is not caused by just GAYS alone or even them being a major role – the main culprit is MAN (including Christians) and his GREED – screw your neighbour and collectively we will all get screwed!

    Massachusetts is just a prototype for all of US (as in humans) where there is massive inequity in distribution of resources and perpetual persecution or marginalization of the underclass, so there will be less competition – not unlike the ethnic cleansing or mass elimination of JEWs, what is the difference. Remember women to early 1900 – they were just baby making machines and house keepers for the God’s superior male! Do tell your sisters or daughters that they sud not spire to high office as they sud obey you, the superior male sent by God – Good Luck and may God keep you in one piece!

    If Casinos and Geylang (social escorts, health centers, internet sex/gambling etc) are not mainstream, what is? I think equating easy accessibility as mainstream seems rational and logical.

    The whole point of the to and fro is this – the Church should not be used as a political pulpit to influence civil society. MR Lawrence Khong or Dr Thio Li Ann can expound whatever personal views as hopefully we have a gracious civil society.

    Lets be learned and shrewd as the fox and be of the world but not be in it and also start learning the lessons that have caused repeating downfall of societies or churches!

    Shalom

  • @JT- it’s not my aim to go into a debate with you. I want to share what is the agenda of the LGBT and as mentioned there will always be some who choose not to understand. Based on your understanding of God, we don’t even need to evangelize as God can send angels or use other supernatural means to do it while we just sit back and criticise leaders and servants of God. I am not saying all leaders are right but a stance of always criticizing and finding opportunities to do so is not a healthy stance and not biblical too. Hebrews 13:17. People who don’t understand the difference between homosexuality and the homosexual agenda may ( not all) sometimes conclude that disapproval of the lifestyle is homophobic but its a misconception and that’s why we need to make the general masses aware. On a personal level I have spoken to small groups totaling over a hundred in the corp sector ( most of whom are non Christians ) an they understand and appreciate because they love the country and their next generation. Massachusetts is just one eg but a very good one on how the agenda pushes itself non stop leading to repercussions that we will never want happen to Singapore. I am not sure about you. The scriptures also teach us that many of things that happened to the people’s in the OT serve to remind us not to follow suit . In this case, the lessons of the west are a lot more current. People who are objective knows anyone who are just speaking against the agenda are not homophobic but we can’t stop people who are biased to say otherwise . Anyway, if you are sincere to find out more and have an objective mind then read Dr Thio, John Rankin , Scott Lively . Truth is exclusive by nature and definition and standing up for truth does not equate to intolerance. Just remember that’s the strategy, tactic and lie of the LGBT activists – to normalize, mainstream, promote it as an alternative lifestyle and celebrate it all in the name of tolerance, inclusion, pluralism and diversity,

    • JT

      Homophobia is about persecuting another human because they are different. As for LIES, who does not tell a lie fairly frequently – YES, Christians LIE all the time, does the “Church” tell a lie? – look no further than “Arise and Build” or “I maintain my integrity” “To save souls for Jesus” (we were just asked to spread the good news – the conversion is Jesus’ and the follow him is the individual.

      Every “human collective” has an agenda from political parties to academic clubs and civil societies – this is aggregation based on common interest or for mutual protection. Does the church have an agenda and should it be tolerated?

      IMHO, YES and sud be tolerated within the confines of its own environs and sanctuary – otherwise there will be marginalized and with active persecution, there will be be an imposition of wills thru force – with technologies and internet, a looney can rapidly become a very destructive loan wolf terrorist. We have had previous experience in our checkered human history – the persecutors became prosecutors and ultimately executors. Nett, nett result, did we “solve” or eliminate anything from racism to prostitution to loan sharking to snake oil pastors (Apologies for those in the profession, did not mean to tar everybody – personal issues with the megalomaniac types only)

      The only purpose is to get blog visitors to discern, distill and decide for themselves – remembering that whatever you do unto others, the same can be done to you 10X-100X more!

      Love your neighbor for they are no less or better human being than yourself – dont delude yourself with justified righteousness through pious hypocrisy.

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