Good news for thousands at New Creation Church(NCC)

Whenever I have no idea of what is good to eat at any hawker center, I follow the Singaporean rule of thumb: look for the queues. Where there is a queue, the food is probably good. It has to be good if people are willing to wait patiently for it. Though it is possible the cook is slow or the system of delivery is bad, the likelihood is that the food is tasty.

So when New Creation Church became the only church where you had to queue to get a seat, the surmise is that the “food” is good. Of course we can be skeptical or cynical and say: its bad organizing or its a image projection or whatever. However, at the crux of it, you’ll have to admit: the queuing thing which went on for close to a decade without waning says something. The “food” has lots of satisfied customers. People, including pastors, may say otherwise. However the thousands of satisfied customers rub their stomachs and say, Jia pa pa (Eat full full).

(image from Stanley Facebook)

Now it seems the thousands of New Creation attenders have good news: they don’t have to queue anymore. They can book their seats online using their ez-link card number. Now this is a wonderful creative solution, one that meets a real need (even though people are actually willing to queue and wait). The pic above is what a booking slip looks like. So this is the true gospel for NCC members: no more queuing. I am happy for them. However if they are late, their passes will expire and the empty seats will be released for others and this is fair and encourages punctuality and responsibility. Technology and moving to the new facility at Star Vista has made this possible. Their first service will be on the 23rd of December 2012.

Instead of queuing just click.

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Comments

  • Just to let you know that the online booking system is also for non-members (like myself) too 🙂

    And your title should read “tens of thousands” rather than “thousands” 🙂

  • Wud u consider McDonalds as the epitome of food popularity? Interesting perspectives can be then drawn from this equation. Noticed what an average customer looks like especially in western countries?

    • Yep.! Most of McDonalds’ food poisons humans and may kill their customers after long-term n excessive consumption. Eg their bread n meat-burgers hv artificial chemical preservatives n red-slime coloring that r poisonous to the human body, ie kidneys n liver.
      …….There was a recent news report out of Taiwan about a teenager who died after solely eating fast-food for all his daily meals since he was a toddler – foolishness.

      Nothing healthier than “classy” restaurants that r patronized by the wise n discriminating bc they serve food that r mostly made from fresh ingredients, without chemical preservatives n artificial coloring/taste-enhancer, etc.

      Also, stay away from Gardenia or factory-mass-produced bread.

      JOHN.6:35 = And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. …”

      • Life is a gift and relatively short

        You will have to die from something – everything is vanity but still enjoy if does not harm your compromise your beliefs – the world has many variants and I believe everybody has a right so long as it does not infringe upon others.

        Just do it after u discern for yourself or bounced it off non vested “experts/enthusiasts”

  • It’s a sustenance strategy. The pastor even mentioned ‘to trim down ‘the people coming to church in one of the service weeks ago. There are church goers with their ‘applications’ in pending status until this day. Trim down people, select the right people (those bigger and regular givers & contributors), basic a/c, standard a/c, special a/c, etc – sounds like GOD’s way? All human strategy when they least anticipate the restraints they face now, like the authorities new regulations imposed to worship centres, etc. A clearly non user friendly way to the elderly, the lesser educated, the less fortunate group of people. GOD would not do this. It is clearly man’s idea and fear of non sustenace in the near future with the high mainteance cost. Even for the most recent ‘ miracle seed’ for the giving to the Star, the church just subtly hide and dare not even announce the actual amount they collected. Very sad. Making use of the name of God when it is all human ideas, like a business enterprise.
    Ask the ex pastor from his heart, what is the main reason, he quit and become an interior designer? I think even God is sad to see such ‘honesty’ in church leaders. Christians are stumbled not by unbelievers but by the church pastors and leaders. Wake up and trust only GOD.

    • 1. I indeed felt very upset when the system was up. “what happens to the computer illiterate?”. “what about the old folks?”
      After a few weeks , nd after receiving (Lots of negative feedback), and making observations…. the church has fine tuned the system so that every seat is used, and not left empty.

      If you have attended NCC enough, you would know pastor prince makes no apology for being candid. You need to know when he is being candid, he did not mean to cut down for the sake of sustenance since the true Gid has already provided. Go back to that message and listen again –

      2. , to “truly truly” have you actually spoke to Joshua tan about the “main reason” why he quit? I doubt the reasons are as sinister as you make it out to me.

      3. The last miracle Sunday was conducted last year – and yea, they did reveal the amount collected. Up to then., they were still a bit short of the target. I guess you either missed that particular service, or your littles birds left it out.

      4. And finally, every Sunday meal was excellent – that’s to us who believe.

      5. And if you choose not to believe, so be it unto you.

      • To: Ana…

        at the end of the day, only God can see the heart and the motives of man, not you, not me….

  • I just couldn’t understand why would anyone would want to go to a cult church that teaches only word of faith and prosperity gospel? NCC and CHC are the same and you people better beware!

    • Many mega organizations fail because it made from fallible people – hubris, excesses of appretites n corrupt leadership have led many to destruction from financial institutes, corporations to churches. America has shown us the best and the worst – most large organizations fail, including big governments – when they do we have massive disruptions like recession, depression and revolutions or civil a war. Almost everything has been about money or economics.

      Huffington has a good summation of mega church failures

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/kate-bowler/sexual-misconduct-and-the-american-prosperity-gospel_b_1949103.html

      Supporting this blog by getting people to use their God given wisdom to discern for themselves what works and why for them – God bless and huat ah!!

  • Sigh. Even how a church chooses to allocate seating arrangements you so-called brothers in Christ can also find something to criticize. I have nothing further to say.

    • Welcome to the real world – more diverse, more stability, more color
      Imagine everybody thinking,acting and looking like the leaders clone – yikes!!

      Just do what u think is right and be prepared to pay the price if u r wrong – nothing wrong in hedging!

    • If people want to argue about doctrine or have some valid criticism with NCC’s or CHC’s teachings, then fine, let’s talk about that. I like discussing differing views in fact. After all, these things do matter.

      But when something is plainly just stupid prejudice and vitriol to anything that has the NCC or CHC brand, and this time it’s NCC’s new church seating arrangements, then I can only shake my head and sigh.

  • ACTS.20:17-38 = The Ephesian Elders Exhorted

    17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. 18 And when they had come to him, he said to them:
    …….“You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, 19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; 20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

    22 And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me. 24 But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.

    25 “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

    29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

    32 “So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

    33 I have coveted no one’s silver or gold or apparel. 34 Yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me. 35 I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

    36 And when he had said these things, he knelt down and prayed with them all. 37 Then they all wept freely, and fell on Paul’s neck and kissed him, 38 sorrowing most of all for the words which he spoke, that they would see his face no more. And they accompanied him to the ship.
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    Paul’s conduct, righteous deeds/actions n preachings were examples of a true pastor/apostle who was led by the Holy Spirit.
    ….Know(discern) true from false pastors/prophets/teachers by their fruits of the spirit(MATT.7:16) and test their spirit by listening to their confessions/teachings/preachings.(1JOHN.4:3)

    The Holy Spirit(God’s Spirit) and evil(fleshy/demonic/satanic) spirit bear different fruits and confessions, eg GAL.5:16-23.

  • Actually I think it is quite a good idea that they are using to allocate seats.

    And I am also happy for the many who have found hope in the messages that NCC preaches.

    But I am also skeptical that they are preaching the same topics over and over again for years. Is that all there is to the gospel? Is that all that is happening in the lives of the NCC preachers?

    I do not need to listen to the same thing many times if I can listen to it once and get it right. So for the thousands who keep going to hear the messages that revolve round the same topic, what is wrong with them?

    • The whole bible is about Jesus Christ and his finished work and it takes the whole book to illustrate this as matter of fact. Do you think 1 short sermon or even a 100 is enough?

      JP might be preaching about the same thing (that is Jesus Christ and His finished work) every week but the full picture is still not complete. Nor does it mean he repeats the same exact message. There are so many ways to bring out Jesus because there are just so many hidden types and secrets pointing to the true Lamb in the names and numbers and genealogies and stories and parables and rituals and laws that I think it may be impossible to discover and elaborate on them all in one lifetime.

      It could be that even in the life to come, we will be still learning about the extent of His grace that was shown to us on the cross.

      Personally, while I think there are still many things wrong with myself, I don’t think one of them is going to NCC weekly to learn more about Jesus and what He did for me. In fact, I’m thankful to God for putting this desire in me to seek these things, because I find that it builds our relationship. It’s almost like hints of His personality show up whenever He is revealed in one these hidden types, and I get a fuller picture of what He is like as a person. And honestly, JP teaches from these hidden types like no other in Singapore at least.

      Hopefully now you and others can understand better now why so many flock to NCC, and not just make illogical assumptions and over-generalize, as if all who go to NCC are weak-minded self-seeking money-loving antinomian buffoons who fell under the mystical sway of a charismatic manipulative con-artist pastor.

      As Blogpastor said, you can say what you want but there is a good reason why so many queue there week after week and leave feeling “fed”.

      • No leh I still think if you need to go listen weekly something is wrong. Because Jesus never preached using the Bible. He was the living word.

        The apostles demonstrated the power of the gospel through their lives. They were walking miracles.

        You people listen a lot but hardly practise anything. Other than regurgitate and repeat the same thing.

        No need to argue if your life is a walking miracle. The whole Singapore would have been impressed.

        Loving God is not the gospel, you are so deceived!

        • Thanks for being concerned that I’m being deceived, but I never even implied that loving God was the gospel. I basically said that loving God is a natural RESULT of hearing and believing the gospel, and the gospel is what Christ has done for us.

          Anyway, if you are living in Singapore would you be interested in meeting up in person to discuss these things further? On the internet it’s easy to say lots of things without accountability.

        • You said: “You people listen a lot but hardly practise anything”.

          Practice what? Charity? Praying? Following moral laws? And how do you know this? From extensive and thorough background checks on myself and everyone in NCC and concluded thus? I suppose also that by making this accusation that you are set apart?

          You said: “No need to argue if your life is a walking miracle. The whole Singapore would have been impressed.”

          Depends on what you mean by miracle. If you mean we should walk around and the streets underneath our feet turn to gold and with a single gaze everyone in the hospitals come dashing out miraculously cured then yes, I agree we are not there yet.

          But like I said, if you know of any church in the world where the congregation can do these things then please please let me know too because I think I want to join.

          • The apostles understood that their bodies were the temples of the Holy Spirit. They, like Jesus, never preached from any book.
            I am amazed that you actually don’t know of people who know this as well and have been practising the gifts for a long time. I have been with them anywhere, in country clubs, in HDB homes, rundown office premises, old school classrooms, and even over the internet. We practise our gifts freely. Some even go to pubs and the streets and the power of God flows.
            And as my friend pointed out, the Corinthian church was moving powerfully in the gifts of the Spirit and yet Paul only fed them milk. So what has your weekly ‘feeding’ got to do with the manifestaion of the Spirit? You are just feeding your brains.
            Your concept of church is already warped. And pathetically giving your money away in ‘miracle seed’ offerings, hoping that after you have your own building that God will show up only during your services. And God showed up in the form of JP.
            If you understand and believe that you are a temple of the Holy Spirit, then what congregation is there for you to join?

          • mnw0610,

            I already said that I have personally benefited from my time in NCC, and others close to myself may attest to the changes in my life. Of course, as I am blessed then I in turn bless others. I can’t help it. But whether or not you believe me is besides the point. I just feel sad that rather than discussing rationally and being open to learning, fellow believers are slinging mud at each other for the lamest reasons. And they aren’t even remotely valid.

            And to suggest that everyone who belongs to a local church like myself don’t know the difference between a building and the Church is yet another odd presumption on your part.

            But I won’t argue what is Scriptural with you here. If you wish, we may meet up and discuss these things in person, or even in our next gathering with Blogpastor and Journeyman and maybe others. I think discussions will be more fruitful and less confrontational when people meet face to face rather than over the internet. This goes for myself as much as everyone else.

            You may contact me directly via email at s.h.u.t.t.l.e.c.o.r.k -at- gmail.com. (Remove the dots pls).

          • @Ben

            I have been in the church scene for more than 20 years. I have seen all kinds of people in church and watched their rise and fall. Some like Kong Hee I already foresaw his falling 15 years ago, when he was just starting to rise. Others taught me rubbish and today are eating the effects of the rubbish they taught. I have friends who died young simply because they believed into rubbish.

            Just doing you a favour to highlight the weaknesses of what you have believed into. If you want to continue in you own way, be my guest. You are just wasting time wanting to argue about doctrines. I have stopped entertaining people like you for a long time because it is a waste of my time.

            That is why I don’t bother with those deceived until the leader they so blindly follow gets hit by scandals. When they start whining, who cares! Already warned, but don’t want to listen.

          • @ mnw0610

            1COR.6:13-20 =
            13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for SEXUAL IMMORALITY but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.
            …….15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
            ….18 Flee SEXUAL IMMORALITY. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
            ….19 Or do you not know that your body is the TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

            2COR.6:14-7:1 =
            14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the TEMPLE OF GOD with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
            “I will dwell in them
            And walk among them.
            I will be their God,
            And they shall be My people.”[b]
            17 Therefore,
            “Come out from among them
            And be separate, says the Lord.
            Do not touch what is unclean,
            And I will receive you.”[c]
            18 “I will be a Father to you,
            And you shall be My sons and daughters,
            Says the Lord Almighty.”[d]
            ….7 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
            ….Footnotes:
            [b] 2 Corinthians 6:16 Leviticus 26:12; Jeremiah 32:38; Ezekiel 37:27
            [c] 2 Corinthians 6:17 Isaiah 52:11; Ezekiel 20:34, 41
            [d] 2 Corinthians 6:18 2 Samuel 7:14

            ACTS.15:23 & 28-29 =
            23 They wrote this letter by them:
            The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,
            To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. & …
            ….28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from SEXUAL IMMORALITY.[a] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.
            ….Footnotes: [a] Acts 15:29 Or fornication.
            _ _ _ _ _ _ _

            All new Gentile converts(cf: Jewish Christians like Peter and Paul) hv been commanded by God thru the Holy Spirit(aka the Spirit of God), to begin their lives as spiritual babies, who had been just born-again of the Spirit, by keeping the 4 simple laws of Moses at ACTS.15:29. Thereafter, they r to slowly grow into spiritual adulthood by feeding on the written Word of God(1COR.3:1-3) or the spoken Word of God/JC(for the lucky few).
            ….The HS who begins to dwell in them will help them to obey these 4 simple written laws/Word of God.

            One of the 4 simple and basic laws of Moses is to abstain from sexual immorality bc the Holy Spirit can only flow effectively thru sanctified or holy bodies, who r the temple of the HS/God. Even humans prefer to live in clean houses; what more the Holy God.
            ….With regards to the believers’ bodies, ie the temple of the HS/God, Paul emphasis was on holiness or sanctification, which is attained by fleeing sexual immorality. His emphasis was not on the flowing of the power of the HS thru the temple of God, ie the miraculous and healing power of the HS, which was yr emphasis.

            There r a number of Pentecostal/Charismatic healers and miracle-workers who hv been caught for having committed sexual immorality, eg homosexuality, adultery, fornication, visiting harlots/prostitutes, etc. Eg, Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart, Earl Paulk, Paul Cain, etc.
            ….It is bewildering that some sexually immoral Pentecostal/Charismatic leaders could claim that the power of the HS was flowing thru them to do signs n wonders.
            ….Besides these sexual sins/evil-deeds, there r also a number of them caught for having committed financial fraud, CBT, embezzlement, etc. Eg Benny Hinn, Jim Bakker, Kong Hee, etc.
            ….I think this Word of God may be directed at them…

            ….MATT.7:21-23 = 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
            ….22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

            P S – This also applies to sexually immoral mainstream Church leaders, eg pedophile Catholic priests. But at least, they did not claim to have the power of the HS flowing thru their “dirty”/sexually-immoral bodies or temples of the HS/God.

          • @ mnw0610 …….

            JOHN.14:26 = “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach u all things, n bring to yr remembrance all things that I said to u.”

            JOHN.20:31 = …but these r written that u may believe that Jesus is the Christ(or the Jews’ promised Messiah/Savior), the Son of God, and that believing u may hv life in His name.

            2TIM.3:14-17 = 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
            ….16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

            MATT.7:24-27 = 24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
            ….26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

      • Dear Ben,

        Christ was sent by his beloved Father to save humanity, not just his Chosen people, but everyone.

        The message of the real faith is about faith. Not money. It’s faith because faith can’t be replaced by wealth. Faith resides in you and in our time on earth, we live the best to increase our faith or not.

        In the bible, one of the recurring themes is also about suffering. Suffering, as we know, still persist in all countries, first world or third world nations.

        To trivialize suffering and faith by saying that if you give MONEY to GOD he will bless you. To say give Grace to receive more Graces. To say being rich, materially, is good because you can give to others is to make a mockery of the true Christian faith. In fact, it makes a mockery of every other mainstream religion or the notion of what religion is.

        Here’s a story to illustrate this:

        1. A couple retires early, enjoys their retirement by walking the beach everyday, collecting sea shells and spending time with family and friends.

        2. Two religious volunteers in a third world country dedicate their entire lives helping the sick, the poor. Live a basic life. But instead of living long or enjoying a wealthy retirement, they died in a car accident on the way to one of the centres to help the poor and the sick.

        Questions : Based on these two scenarios, which would you say have lived the more fulfilling and meaningful life?

        If you believe in prosperity gospel, then you will be predisposed to choose scenario 1. If you are a believer of the true faith then you are likely to choose scenario 2. If you belong to a prosperity gospel church but choose scenario 2, then there’s hope for you 🙂

        Seek the true faith. The true faith that tells all of us the good news. The Good News is that every man, woman and child can be saved by faith. It’s not about receiving riches here but riches of spiritual faith that will give us all the peace and serenity to lead us to the Kingdom of Heaven.

        Think about it. Why would God want your money? Does it need something which Man created? God created us and it is us He wants not our possessions.

        Think about it.

        Every night i pray prosperity gospel followers will turn to the true faith.

        God bless.

        • Hi Sean.

          Outwardly, based on the usual notion of “holiness” that the world adheres to, I would agree with you that #2 seems more “holy” and thus also more “fulfilling” and “meaningful”. I use quotations there because your idea of fulfillment and meaning can be different from mine or anyone else for that matter.

          But then again, I personally believe that it’s what’s in the heart that really matters. Not the outward action. What are our true motives for devoting our lives to helping the sick or the poor? Because the Holy Spirit in us leads us to derive true fulfillment and joy from helping others full-time? Or because we think it’s a noble and morally right thing to do? Or because we think we can earn some points with God by devoting our lives to others? All these motives might have the same outward result, but only one here is truly noble in my opinion.

          So in short, I can’t say that either is more meaningful or more fulfilling than the other, based just on appearances. It depends on what is in the person’s true motives and therefore I think only God knows.

          • @Ben
            great to see u back on this blog. Remembered your remark about discussing doctrine rather than “raving” – maybe you can digest the Southwest Convention and see if it resonates with your rationality and faith

            Just came across Justin Peters – a cerebral palsy pastor. Learned discourse on the word of faith, prosperity and grace pastors in the USA. Thought it instructive…….see and discern for yourselves.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t17fo2yvv3I

            shalom.

      • I am not so sure that I would call Joseph Prince a con artist but I have found NCC members definitely without a mind of their own and definitely self seeking. There is nothing wrong with this if we are children in the LORD but one day we have to grow up.

    • I wrote so much just now, but here’s the gist of it:

      Looking back 6-7 years to now, from going to NCC and listening to JP’s messages, I find myself genuinely loving God more and more, with no need of mental gymnastics to try to will or “force” these things.

      Does this sound wrong to you?

      • H Ben
        Agree n respect yr sentiment – works for u and I am happy u hv a working model – guess loving is being able to disagree wo being disagreeable – no problems so long as nobody forces it Uob another by coercive means or threats – we have a diverse world of possibilities. Many paths lead to the door of the kingdom – some scenic, some challenging but believers will hv the strength to complete it, hopefully n expectantly

      • @Ben

        When you say you love God more and more, you are already off. God is Spirit, because when Jesus left He promised The Spirit to His believers. And that love is not humanistic but that Holy Spirit being God is Himself love. And this is the same love Paul talks about in Corinthians that enables the believers to operate in the gifts. Paul never said to love God more and more, he said to abide which means those who have the Holy Spirit simply rest in that love.

        So how can that love become more and more? Strange, for someone who have been listening to JP for so many years and still don’t get it.

        • The idea one can “dehumanized” or disembody LOVE seems to me an
          extreme rationalization…..trying to have two conflicting realities may result in schizoid personality….. Maybe this cud explain why there are no”walking miracles” as per yr thinking and also why intolerance and ferventness goes hand in glove. Perhaps Festinger’s theory offers an insight….,..

          “Cognitive dissonance is a term used in modern psychology to describe the feeling of discomfort when simultaneously holding two or more conflicting cognitions: ideas, beliefs, values or emotional reactions. In a state of dissonance, people may sometimes feel “disequilibrium”: frustration, hunger, dread, guilt, anger, embarrassment, anxiety, etc.[1]…..”

          • @Journeyman

            Have you actually physically felt the power of God flow?

            I have, and it is a power not an emotion. Sometimes it is like wind gushing out of the hand, sometimes like heat, sometimes like electricity.

            It is never a psychology or a cognitive thought.

        • mnw and some numbers,

          More and more.

          Yes, I do love God more and more as I know His nature more and more. I used to think He demands, now that I know He gives and He gives and I abide in His love more and more, I love Him more and more 🙂 I like Him more and more too. As a consequence of this increasing love, I seek Him more and more.

          I love God more today than 10 years ago, really. I used to love my husband more :)..not anymore though.

          Faith comes by hearing the word of Christ and that is why we all need good feeding every week. Whatever works for us, though.

          We give to the church because we are very blessed 🙂 Thank you, Lord!

          Anyways, if the Holy Spirit lives in us, the most evident quality in us is Love.

          Anyways, your ‘warped’ got me back here..You do not happen to be Balanced / WIP disciple are you? Nah, nah, just joking..:) (Are you?..) 🙂

          • @lyn,
            LSeems like u hv developed a very transaction n very lucrative extractive relationship – “the more He gives n gives, the more I love him.” Find your perspective and approach appealing but unsure for myself if this is really the same God as described in the Bible.

            To all….
            Blessings and wishes for a healthy, joyful, peaceful and very prosperous 2013. Huat ah!!

          • There is no shame in that, Journeyman.

            That is why He is ‘Father’. If I don’t ask Him for all my needs, ask whom?

            There are a million reasons why I love Him. I don’t have to justify my reasons.

            One of it is this. The Bible says this about Him..

            Psalm 18:35
            You give me your shield of victory, and your right hand sustains me; YOU STOOP DOWN TO MAKE ME GREAT….(!)

            How not love a God like this?

            I Love you, Lord 🙂

  • From crowd sourced website…….http://www.skepdic.com/about.html….

    …………..” Their belief is not based on evidence, but on devotion to a person. That devotion can be so great that even the most despicable behavior by one’s prophet can be rationalized. There are many examples of people so devoted to another that they will rationalize or ignore extreme mental and physical abuse by their cult leader (or spouse or boyfriend). If the basis for a person’s belief is irrational faith grounded in devotion to a powerful personality, then the only option that person has when confronted with evidence that should undermine her faith would seem to be to continue to be irrational, unless her faith was not that strong to begin with. The interesting question, then, is not about cognitive dissonance but about faith.”

  • @mnw0610
    First time coming across “God Flow” – pardon my natural skepticism and inquisitive nature –

    Seems like In yr experience “God Flow” manifests in natural phenomenae like gust of wind, heat or electricity – have experienced all these things In a natural environment but never in a controlled chamber. So if these are unnatural or supernatural phenomenon, then expect “natural” laws will be suspended, presumedly by God just to impress a few people in country clubs or bars? Seems to me this is really very anecdodal and subjective and you cud very well be one of the few chosen to hv experitential privileges.

    My own reality of God is much more pedestrian and manifested by Nature in all it’s glory and gory – to sense the intriguing patterns of repeating nano symmetry resulting in often diverse macro shapes from sublime to bizarre is my realization of an omnipotent God who has devised a system of meta stability enabling transient equilibrium yet allowing progress from adaptive processes. Interesting is when virtual reality merges with our own cognitive imperfections – maybe a explaination for these unnatural/supernatural perceptions.

    • @Journeyman

      That is why many people like you don’t believe that the life that the apostles were living is a reality for today. You think the Bible is just read and theology.

      • @mnw0610,

        No inclination to be a theologist or scholar – just trying to be a conscious competent follower of JC – trying to evolve to being an unconscious competent using a scalable model that enables me to evolve as more and more things are revealed to me by God.

        Hope my process is of reading, reflecting and applying the findings to the reality around me so that it can lead to a life of abundance.

        Like I say in 2000 years, things have changed dramatically – physical reality has no resemblance to that of the world of Jesus – however our basic instincts (sins) have not – still carnal. SEX used to be for procreation only with poor knowledge the consequential pregnancy posed considerable risk to the mother. OBGYN science and technology has minimized many of these risks n advent of birth control has enabled SEX to become truly recreational. However death for viral STD and incidence of cancers of the reproductive system has in become prominent and seem to have increased in frequency – just this is where wisdom and choices come in – balancing your ancient basic instincts and new opportunities. to try to deny SEX as a primordial force endowed by God to ensure continuation of the human species is unGODLY and trying to ban these instincts are crazy. Only time celibacy works is when there is a confluence of hormonal levels, mind and beliefs. Getting 2 out of 3 is quite achievable but getting all 3 right when you are in the 12-25 yes group with modern media is impossible. Check the crazy Islamist trying to ban unsanctioned sex to replace it with child brides?

        Let’s get real today or all the Bible quotes and knowledge are worthless – question to me now is weather I need a personal coach like JP or just reading, reflection, meditation and prayer to enable a life of abundance.

        On a anecdotal basis, this model seems to work to me – can enjoy and be of the world without being in the rat race.

        Clinging to blissful ignorance or fervent unnatural reality does not appeal to me. Some people like to become slaves of others – I prefer to trust the HS to lead me away form darkness, superstitions prefer enlightenment, knowledge and wisdom bestowed by the HS to have an abundant life.

      • @mnw0610

        Which apostles do u mean? – the ones in the Bible (Mark, Matt, Luke et al) or those who have claimed these honorifics – …….(fm Wiki …Apostle Lawrence Khong (full name: Lawrence Khong Kin Hoong; born in 1952) is the Senior Pastor of Faith Community Baptist Church (FCBC) in Singapore……)

        Pls clarify – the Biblical guys, no issue – if u mean the modern pentocost/charismatic types….korean pop fashioned garbed, riding in a V8 420bhp supersports car – yeh, have trouble even identifying that i share any commonality in belief or faith.

  • Anointed? When almost everything is from other sources, from books of Kenneth Copeland, Rick Warren, Joyce Meyer, etc. Even some jokes are from books & the internet. Of course, after decades of preaching, one can do wonders on stage especially he or she has the charisma and giftings of standing before an audience. Nothing wrong with copying from others with good intentions. The most frightening things is one who uses ‘reverse psychology'(i have no better word to describe) to get to the minds of audience. Just an example: “Money is a good servant, but a bad master!” “Nothing wrong with money, but it is wrong to be greedy and materialistic!” That’s right. But is the one proclaiming this not exceedingly greedy or materialistic than the average person? It has to take the authorities to direct the Straits Times to publish on the front page that one from the church has an annual income of more than half a million S$ years ago to wake you people up. Does this ‘man of God’ drives just a good Toyota, or just happy to live in a HDB exec mansionette or an Exec Condo? No! Millions of Sporeans will be happy to have such, and you think that pastor would settled for that? Where all the money for luxurious car, private pty, overseas holidays come from? Today, he yelled that he is just a volunteer and does not take a salary from the church. Why don’t he yelled out loud to the church people when he was taking more than half a million back in those days? Of course he is blessed, you people are helping him to earn money, by giving free service to sell CDs,books,promotion,, etc, all from the church people’s resources. If you have been attending this church for many long years, ask yourself, has he not been preaching selectively? Did he ever teach tithing in the whole context? Did he tell you that Abraham tithed spoils of war, and gave the 90 per cent remainder to King of Sodom? Abraham never keep the 90 percent. Do you tithe this way? Jacob tithed once only after he gave conditions and demands onto God. Do you tithe this way? All the tithes have never been money. Not everyone tithes. Fishermen, tent makers, stone crafters, etc do not tithe in those days. The Levites only served a few weeks in a year and they received not money but food and shared everything with the fatherless, the widows, etc. Do you follow the same bible pattern? Now, this new venue, the Star needs huge income to support and maintain. The only way is to get you people to give your 10 percent or else, in a matter of time, the running of this premise will be in trouble. So, from now on, you will be bombarded with very clever and subtle preachings, to move your emotions, your heart and mind with crafty manipulations of the verses. Sadly the word, Jesus, and God are the most manipulated words. I do not wish to go on. One day, when you see what you don’t see, like myself,I was once so engrossed and amazed by the pastor until I saw the tricks something like the MLM leaders where and what they say and testify seems right and uplifting but the reality is they are the ones who prosper and you just wait long long. Believe in GOD, trust in our Lord, not to pastors who are materialistic, greedy and never never let you know the financial statements of the church, the church’s income, the investments when all the money are from the sincere believers. Time to grow up and love God and not idolise a man.
    Ask him, “God spoke to him,” God put words in his mouth, etc”, if that is the case, the Childcare would not closed shop, the Indonesian service (years ago) would not failed, he would not stumbled so many believers and non believers in taking a ‘princely pay’ and revealed by the papers years ago, etc. It is making merchandise of people using the name of God. My sad and painful of more than 10 years in NCC taking me many years to wake up. Even City Harvest is more straight forward in gettting money from the church people, where this one is truly very very subtle and crafty. Mentioning, Facebook founder time and again in his preaching. Mentioning billionaires like Warren Buffet and Bill Gates in his book. Love Israel where there are lots of multi millionaires who are Jews. Once hooked just one or two of them, you will hear, “If you don’t feel like giving, pls don’t give. Whose word sticked? All offering and tithes dropped since the word of the press came out years ago revealing one church key person earning more than half a million. He is talking about himself. You will never know how sorry the most recent miracle seed took in. The biggest giver did not contribute this time. Today, I want GOD more than before, but for pastors of this sort, be careful, be very careful.

    • @Lina
      If you are awaken by HS, u will start discerning – have been on your journey for past 5 years – church visiting with little solace or solace – most are the behave like swarms with a trance lime rhythm, comfortable and comforting. Fortunate or unfortunately, I had a gnawing hunger for a spiritual connect beyond the mouthing of platitudes and pleasantries and superficial reading of the Bible. Been to many cathedrals, temples and mosques across many lands but found essentially similar theocratic intolerance amongst the evangelicals regardless of their religious persuasions.

      Remembered the Bible saying….”seek and you will find…the truth will set you free..,” my belief is where you find truth, there you will find God. Truth is harder to discern than you think…so based on God’s promise of an abundant life, my journey and quest started.

      Have been blessed with some great traveling companions in both my spiritual and world journeys. A year and a half ago we started to read, meditate, reflected on ECC – a simple and short book of 12 chapters – attracted because it was written by the wisest man of the ages, hence it is a good place to start this new journey.

      Hope my experience will encourage you to find your own journey – the destination is fixed physically (death) and spiritually (belief/faith) – so it is and always will be about the journey.

      Just a final thought – JC said the “the work is finished” – we have been equipped – listen to the HS and be aware of the both natural and God’s law as your guide. god deals with us individually – Wish u an enjoyable,
      fulfilling journey.

      Don’t worry about the illusionist, Korean pop “apostles” talk with God directly.

    • JP by his own admission said that he disobeyed God when God told him to go without salary.

      Years before that, he said in a sermon he would forsake everything if God told him to. Everything, except his wife and daughter. He said “Money has no hold on him.” I never forgot that. But the one who is always referencing rich Jews and Lamborghinis is him. Money has no hold on him? I think money has a BIG hold on him.

      Not only that, if you follow all his stories and piece them altogether like a jigsaw, you will find that JP struggles with the love of money. He keeps saying “the love of money, not money is evil.” But his actions prove otherwise. I honestly think he started well, but I think he gave in to the flesh.

      Anyone who has been in NCC from the early days, will remember he shares these stories that give away his weakness. God wanted JP to go full-time, but what did he do? “No, I want to make money for you Lord” was his response. It took circumstantial events for him to make that change.

      He shares in his early days as a pastor, he wanted church growth, but the church was not growing, until God dealt with him to just preach and not care about church growth. He struggled with the idea that he had to take a pay cut. He made it sound like it was a choice, but it was NOT a choice, due to the events that led to it. That was when the church was tiny. Now that the entire machine is up, I really wonder if he still remembers his origins, or does he want to pursue his original plan. There’s no telling if he changes, nor is there a way to find out. I am not taking risks. It’s better to trust in God than to trust in man.

      And seeing the changes that happened to NCC over the years, I fear it is more than cosmetic changes, I think the entire mission has changed. It’s all lip service. Not only that, JPs anointing has weakened tremendously over the years. Back then, he leads worship, spontaneous miracle services were fairly common, his rabbit trails were also common and full of life. These days it’s all dried up. His preaching is mechanical and he preaches only 2 services as opposed to his 6 services, and on top of that he flies off for holidays ever so often. Flesh or Spirit?? I think he now lives off of his previous reputation. It’s a bit like Samson, without the power of God, he is but a mere common man.

      The worst joke he ever pulled was the the whole “Giving God all the glory” and proceeds to pose as a Greek God. Absolute bad taste. Reeks of stinking rotten flesh! Do you ever pull such a joke in front of the Prime Minister or a dignitary?

      The last straw is when he disobeyed God on going without salary. (His own admission). NCC is big on unquestioning submission, yet the person who doesn’t practice it is him.
      (If you have served inside the church, you will find out that a different standard applies when you are a normal member vs. a server and leader). Hypocrisy!! (One more won’t make a difference?? Thanks, but no thanks. It’s better to obey God than man. The Word says not to eat with such a one – and the CONTEXT of that verse includes one who is named a brother and is greedy and covetous. Even Paul spoke up and exposed Peter’s hypocrisy IN PUBLIC, even though Peter is “older” in the Lord)

  • @ lina,

    I’m sorry about your ‘discovery’ as such. I totally understand where you’re coming from.

    My principle when it comes to churches is to go to one that you feel the most blessed at. All pastors have things to teach us if we are humble.

    My experience with NCC is that it teaches the wisdom of God. Many many valuable nuggets to be had from there. The pastor has blessed me very very much in that way. I take all the good but since the pastor is only a man, he is fallible in some ways which I’ll not discuss here rather when it is raised one by one according to the Lord’s leading.

    So, one day, I asked the Lord (if unsure it is best to wait upon the Lord) is this what the Bible is all about? Wealth?

    Then as I was reading my Bible, I came to realise what I have stated many times earlier.

    Different pastors have different callings. Pastor Prince has a lot of influence with the Jewish in Israel. Israelites, the chosen race are those people who walk around with blessings dropping on their heads without doing much. They are very wealth conscious. One of the reasons why they are not impressed with Christianity is that Lord Jesus went against that stream.

    Pastor Prince and probably some new breed of pastors teach things in the ‘language’ of these people. What is more impressive is that he is pulling out teachings from the Old Testament that even the Jewish priests did not recognise and had to agree with once it is explained. Also, wealth, in this way makes them sit up and take attention.

    I think it is save to say that if a church exalts Jesus, there is very little that could go wrong with it. I do not agree with some things that are taught there based on my experiences in life and the Bible emphasis, but then again I have never fully agreed with anyone in my life.

    I think if we are disheartened, just move church. God is in control. Blogpastor has a very good church going on there…. 🙂

    • “I think it is safe to say” is the sentence.

      This is an excerpt from ‘The Jewish Phenomenon’ Silbiger.

      “According to the New Testament, the Christian world has, at best ambivalent attitude toward money and wealth. Matthew 19:24, Luke 16:13, Timothy 6:10

      For Jews, on the other hand, wealth is good thing, a worthy and respectable goal to strive toward. What’s more, once you earn it, it is tragic to lose it. Judaism has never considered poverty a virtue. The first Jewish were not poor, and that was good. The Jewish founding fathers, Abraham, isaac and jacob, were blessed with cattle and land in abundance. Asceticism and self -denial are not Jewish ideals.
      With your financial house in order, it is easier to pursue your spiritual life

      Where there is no flour, there is no Bible-The Mishna
      Poverty causes transgression-Hasidic folk saying
      Poverty in man’s house is worse than fifty plagues-The Talmud”

    • Is it safe to say if, say, a charitable org, doing lots of good, upheld ‘love,’ highly, & in the midst of all the respect and adoration from people, there would be very little to go wrong with it?
      Just 95% good stuff and truth, & the 5% cleverly, subtly, cunningly manipulate some stuff like a world class magician, and get your hears and minds.
      Every Sun it’s amazing to see thousands idolize a man who exalts the Lord and at the same time, ……………….. . One day when you see that, you have grown to another level. You will love and believe God to another level. You will see how man could twist and manipulate bible verses. Fantastic.

      • @lina,

        Firstly, I try not to judge people. My relationship is vertical. God to me and me to God. I don’t care how wealthy, good looking or smart others are. I am only interested in how I can be a better and better person in God.

        Secondly, when we go to church, we have to go after God. Our hearts must be right. We go not to chase wealth. We don’t give to reap rewards. We give to Him. Our hearts should be hungry for Him. Then when the pastor teach, we’re taking notes as to how to walk closer with God. We don’t care what he’s wearing or how many parties he has at his home. This his vertical. Between God and him. If you look at the pastor, every church you go to, at the end, you will find something to complain about. You’ll become bitter. However, if the messages are not speaking to you, go to a different church. Simple. Leave all things to God. He is mighty.

        Pastors are authorities over the people. If you allow them to, they will care for you. Be it when your family is need of a prayer or any other support, counseling, financial support (to some extent) of some kind etc. etc. This is why God put them there, to shepherd us. In this world. we are to submit to authorities, whatever the verse is for that..

        However, we are allowed to judge for ourselves the teachings. If it does not agree with our spirit, find another church.

        To prove this point is this argument. There are however many billion people on this earth. There are however many billion Christians. We have so many varied problems. The Bible is a supernatural book that has an answer to all our problems. That is why sometimes there a ‘seeming’ contradiction in the Bible. Look at it closer, we’ll know the EMPHASIS of these verses are different to suit different needs.

        It’s the same as churches, some promote peace to the people, some comfort in the Lord, some wealth, some unity, some health, some faith, some service, some stay strictly literal to the Bible because, some people, that’s all they can handle and some go to churches with a great Sunday school because they have kids. These are all according to the pastor’s area of strength. Wise people don’t blindly go to just any church. They go once or twice and then leave because it’s just not what they NEED. In that way the Lord appoints all these wonderful pastors of varied personalities and beliefs to guide us along. Where Jesus is preached in the Spirit of Grace, we agree with..

        My advice to you is to repent and just walk the other way. There are two ways the coin may fall. If the pastor is really a pastor of God, then you would have judged and make all these accusations against him and his boss, God. Pastors do enjoy authority over us being men God selected to preach the good news, to guide us along spiritually, also, there are prophets, pastors, teachers etc.etc. If the pastor is as you say without a trial, a fraud case, then time will tell. God rules. We don’t have to be too clever in all these things. Look for another church. Then, if many more people act this way, the mega church will not be mega anymore. (This applies to you too, mnw and some numbers). It’s time to move on.

        Testimony: (I have a testimony for every situation and that’s abundant life (JM), Praise You, Father)

        Last Christmas, 8 of us went to a girlfriend’s house to have a party. At this party, we are to bring a gift and put it under the tree to play a game. After lunch we proceeded to the tree to play the game.

        So, there were 8 gifts under the tree. What happens is, we are supposed to pick a number each from 1-8. The rule is the one who got number 1 would pick the first gift, open it up and number 2, before picking the second gift can decide to take the gift off number 1’s hands if that was what she wanted and if it’s the better gift. So, it’s very fun to witness human greed in action. Number 8 will ultimately be the winner because she can choose any gift she likes off the hands of the one holding it.

        Some were really greedy (like me :)) who wanted the best gift but some women as some Christian women can be, are very nice and try not to pick the best gift but just settle with what they take from under the tree.

        So, number 8 is such a Christian lady. After viewing all the gifts, she refused to take them off anybody’s hands but decided to pick the one under the tree. She pulled out a book and it was Pastor Prince’s booklet “Abundant life” (JM?) or something like that (not sure of the title). She then gave a funny smile, you know, those smile that looks like she really wants to cry.

        My very good friend then pulled me aside with amazement on her face and said this..”God is so great. I brought the Pastor’s book. 3 days ago, we were at the cell group and number 8 were saying so many bad things against him. Today, before coming, I didn’t go buy a gift but just picked a new book to give away. I didn’t even know she was coming”

        That explains the cry/ smile look..

        See..be careful my friend. With the things you’re writing here, a hundred of the good pastor’s books might just be sent to your doorstep by your ignorant friend 🙂

        • @Lyn
          How can you make such a deceptive statement – “I do not judge…” – fact is you and everybody else do whenever we offer an opinion you think is more right(eous) unless like you imply that you toss a coin and offer whatever was in you head in a random manner. Every decision always implies a choice amongst possibilities which will imply making a judgement. Biblically if the judgement and subsequent advice is made from your sister’s perspective(or bro) and for their benefit, it edifies the judgment call.

          Your implied threat of sending “a hundred of the good pastor’s book…” is a parody on invoking the equivalent of a Biblical (albeit with modern surgical precision) plague is interesting – if I were her it will be a hollow threat as it wud cost abt $35-00 each maybe 20% quantity discount ( unless the Pastor loves money to consider discount) cost will be around $7000-00 +/-. Wonder if God would even sanction or consider such a prank?

          Was wondering why followers are called sheep for a long time. The shepard sud be the pastor, deacons and apostles. Sheep are herded as livestock and will eventually end up on the shepard’s table as sausage or chops or fleeced to provide clothing – seems like apt description for some of the mega and uber mega church attendees. In biology this is called an ecosystem and if it last for many generations, then it becomes a sustainable one.

          Thank you Daddy for the many many sheep meaty and fleecy? Huat Ah, PTL.

          • There is a big difference between “offering an opinion on right behavior” versus outright condemning someone a fraud or conman or magician or liar based on nothing but hurt sensibilities. Lets not get so stuck in terminologies

          • It’s all in the Bible, JM. I think, as a Christian, it is important for us to learn to love and respect everyone. We won’t get anywhere in life by blasting people on blogs. Especially if they are church leaders. How smart do we presume we are? Nobody knows what God’s plans are. We are not able to see the big picture and if we can, we’d probably shoot ourselves for saying the things we say. We should tread gently with regards to all these things.

            Anyway, if we are unhappy about certain things in a church, bring it up to the church leaders. They are more than happy to give us back all our tithes if they know the way we feel, I’m very sure of it.

            Anyways again, if we actually come to know Pastor Prince in person I’m sure he is a very good man. You might even like him, JM. You might not agree with him but you might like him.

            He cannot have that many people listening to him if he’s not teaching good. This is not only in Singapore but all over the world.

            The hatred is showing in our own hearts. The evil is in the complainer’s courts. We are called to love. Even when I wrote all these things it is out of love. The ‘judgement’ in Grace is always gain. Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, hence, the SGP 7000, is it you counted? I’m pretty bad at math.

  • This is not directed at any pastors. But not getting a salary from the church one is pastoring is not/any better or worse than one who is drawing a salary. In fact the former can have accountability issues. By setting up a separate ministry and yet pastoring a church one can have conflict of interest even though the church was originally “founded” by the person. When you are invited to a speaking engagement , the honorarium goes to you instead of the church. When a cd containing the favourite worship songs of the church is produced and sold under the separate ministry, the proceeds go to the person’s ministry and not the church. When the perosn compiles says sermons taught over the years in the church into a book and sell it, the proceeds go to the ministry and not the church. The question is to what extent the success of these sales is attributed to the church and to what extent to the separate ministry. It is difficult to draw the line even though the church is founded by the person. The only exception is when this person is no longer pastoring or the senior pastor of the church and is just operating under his separate ministry. Otherwise, there is more accountability if all the proceeds go back to the church and the church decides how much to pay him. Even if its a S$1mm , there is accountability. Imagine ( take a homefront eg) Ron Sim or George Quek ( Breadtalk) setting up separate personal consultancy cos( on lifestyle and food products respectively) while maintaining their positions in their companies. The cos should do well but to what extent is this attributed to the ongoing success of Osim or Breadtalk even though they started these cos. ? The point is about transparency and accoutability. It can even be argued that it is better and wiser to channel all these proceeds back to the church and let the church decide how to deploy the funds. So we cant really say that not drawing a salary from the church one is pastoring is wiser or better than one who draws a salary from the church. Think about the transparency and accountability issues and governance issues. As stated earlier,this is just for general discussion and is worth noting.So it maybe naive to think one is better than another and that everything is clear by not drawing a salary. In this day and age, it is better and wiser to err on the side of conservatism and prudence.

    • @lina. Whatever you have been thru, right or wrong, dont forget to tithe to the Lord as that is his command. Anything less than 10% is stealing from the Lord. Above that is really an offering.Most impt dont be bitter even if you have bad experiences. Lets just hope and pray that the pastors of the city will be guided by God’s wisdom and good counsel in their handling of finances. I wrote my thoughts earlier becos i have heard comments from christians that the best and wisest thing for pastors to do is not to draw a salary. How naive can that be .It all depends. For eg in the corp world nowadsys, conflict of interest and accountability is getting more and more attention.

  • @Justthinking

    Transparency & accountability?

    Just show the church goers the church’s yearly financial stmts for the past 10 yrs. Just show how much the top pastors had taken as their annual income the past 10 yrs. Just show the recent church building’s givings (called the mircale seed Sun & not intentionally mixed up the amount). Just show the top pastor’s private property, luxurious car, the returns (or loss) of church investments. After all, all the money is from the church believers right from the start. If one’s conscience is clean, there is nothing to hide.

    Let the church deploys the funds?
    The church commitee, the church leaders, the junior pastors are all ‘yes men.’ Needless to say, you know who is the real ‘god’ behind. Serve God, give to God, etc, is actually helping to sell and promote one’s DVDs and materials to fatten one’s pocket. No news to the church believers that what portion goes to the church at all until today.

    The best thing is let the authorties reveal everything in the papers. Right from the princely incomes received annually to every grand holdiays in Japan, Europe, etc.

    By the way, just take last Sunday’s ‘preaching’ (27/01). Ex Pastor Kong Hee should really listen to that. He will then slap himself and say , “I should have learnt from him!”

  • @Ben 01/0213
    First what is “right behavior” – conformance to a value accepted by an oppressive majority? Socially acceptable norm? Letter of the law? religious morality? Indignant righteousness?

    In an era of massive bank frauds where nobody has been found guilty, we are approaching antimonium pandominum – basically we now have capitalize the gains and socialize the liability – to the facilitators goes the “fees” and the bag is left holding by the “sheep”. – City Harvest sud be both illuminating and educational – we never seem to learn from NKF, Renji – the many myriad Ponzi schemes, more recently..http://www.financetwitter.com/2012/10/genneva-gold-another-collapsing-ponzi-scam.html

    My own theory is that when there is fire alarm raised, there iwill be “accelerants” and good potential for a massive fire.

    Maybe we sud also take to heart the Lance Armstrong fable – the man who doped everyone including himself but did a lot of good with the treasures he obtained by cheating the few sheep (non-dopeys) who raceme their hearts out without enhancers – how to judge, who is right or wrong? God’s judgement using his conscience is beyond the justice capability of Man. BTW many were sued for libel successfully in the past but the TRUTH will always prevail except the sheep that blew the whistle had been mangled and left half dead years ago.

  • @lyn 01/02/2013
    My apologies for the poor maths but weather is 3500 pr 7k, it is a lot of money for a guy like me…..maths not good without spreadsheet.

    The Bible has many wonderful lessons but apply these to appropriate situations requires the intervention of God –
    sadly many religious people take out a verse and apply them out of context leading to anguish and more destruction.

    All of us have planks in our eyes but we forget and take great pleasure in pouting the speck in our sister’s eye instead or maybe two “wongs dont make a wright” or neither be a lender or it is a sin to charge interest on loans to your bro n sister but ok to charge the stranger?

    At some level of madness we can find verses to kill and eliminate anybody who opposes us – it will not be about righteousness but of might – end result is the same except we will fill justified and blood lust can be satisfied until one’s conscience is awoken.

    Wrt JP, the concept of billions and faith is not in my belief model – it would be an allergent that I would need to avoid having any contact with.

    I feel for @Lina because it seems like her 10+ years of faithfulness has been shattered and what she sees beyond the impeccable facade shocks and offends her. If people want to use their resources to support another’s lifestyle because their God told them so is their cross to bare. My advise as always to discern for themselves as there are many wolves disguised as sheep – me I prefer to ride in a wealth vehicle and live abundantly and freely – beholden to nobody except God and the products of procreation.

    • Isn’t it amazing that 2 people with the same number of years in NCC can have entirely different OPINIONS of the church? I am referring to myself and Lina here btw. I hope you will also believe that I am still rationally sane and not some mindless NCC drone that others often assert just because of the church I choose to attend.

      If Lina feels like she has “seen the light” so to speak, then fine, air your views if you want.

      But let’s stop at labeling people a fraud or conman or whatever without so much as a whisper of proof. This isn’t even on the level of “judging” someone, because “judging” someone normally involves at least some evidence of wrong-doing even though one does not know the whole situation as God does. On the other hand, prematurely condemning without evidence is merely creating some cheap drama to provoke and offend.

  • jM

    In lina’s post she did say that the pastor said if don’t feel like giving, don’t give. That’s true. I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt that he meant what he says.

    My family is a family of tither and do other charity work. We are very comfortable and never lacked. The pastor can say whatever he wants, but at the end of the day it’s my choice what I want to give.

    I heard some DVDs where the pastor said to overseas listeners, ‘please don’t tithe to my church, tithe to your local church’.

    Those books that he wrote and materials from his research, why can’t he gain from that? I don’t know if he does or what is the real situation with the church but I’m sure they have a team of accountants and lawyers to advice them on the legalities due to the amount involved.

    If they have been investigated before and authorities did not find anything to go on, why should we go on and on?

    The old way of having the church all over the place before the new building came up was quite terrible. I went somewhere, my kids were somewhere else and some other family members somewhere else. Why can’t we have a nice building for the church? Instead of paying a huge amount of rent for the various locations, why not pay for one place and be done with it? When they don’t need the building anymore, just sell it off and the church would have made a gain and the money would have belonged to the church. Anyway, one step at a time.

    As a Christian, I would have thought we would have REJOICED at having a HUGE church just to show off to the world that the casinos don’t rule the Singaporeans.

    The pastor will never come to defend himself on this forum. All these is very one sided and disturbing.

    What about the thousands who are grateful to know God better because of him? You look at the whole situation through your scientist-colored lenses whilst I’m suggesting to Christians to look at it from Christian lenses. If we believe in God, let God be the judge. Judgement belongs to God.

    What’s wrong with mentioning Israel or their people? Our Bible came from them. What’s wrong with having one or two failed projects?

    What reverse psychology? It’s reverse psychology only if you have the wrong psychology in the first place.

    Why listen to last week’s message when you already think so badly of them?

    Anyway, like it or not, that ship also sailed long ago. OOps wait..did I hear music and dancing? Maybe it’s coming from a party at the pastor’s house….jealous much?

    🙂

    • @ Lyn – beyond listening to 1-2 JP DVD for a cell group exercise – have not inclination to know anymore . Lots of people belived in Bernie Madoff – and threw their life savings at him. Just because it is popular, it is neither relevant or real. He is welcome to all the high living he can get as I have never contributed – NCC members deserve to be invited to the parties and never me.

      Also as mystified why Lina keeps going to NCC if she is so unhappy – cutting back investments is good advice.

    • @Lyn
      You are absolutely right – “emptor caveat,” – buyer beware, like buying stuff from Lucky Plaza, Sim Lim and their likes. Wondered why there was a need to legislate for a Consumer Protection Act?? Or have an insurance Act or Finance Act – mostly it is about establishing trust and ensuring the public is protected by the unscrupulous and blatant cheats – it does not mean that those in the industry wud not attempt to “game” the system for maximum profit or commercial advantage, hence we have the corrupt practices act to catch those who sail close to the wind and disqualify them from these lucrative markets when transgressions are proven legally. Even DBS sold Lehman bonds, their defense was they did not know they were more risky than junk bonds and capital protection did not imply capital guaranty. Guess what happened?

      I do not fault Lina from being pissed, I felt pissed when I discovered my bonds were not worth as much as the bankers said.

      The ultra grand building is fabulous for visitors but I am not sure the stakeholders and their physical neighbors feel completely blessed. Tranquility and village charm has been forced from Ghim Moh – extremely crowded on sundays by NCC attendees looking for good and reasonably priced food. Blessing or bane?

      • Relaxlah, JM.

        The tithe is only 10 percent of the salary, my goodness. Even then, it is voluntary.

        Some people go to church for 10 years can only come up with all the FINANCIAL aspects of the church. Pretty sad, if you ask me. I gain so much knowledge from there, I don’t even know what to say..

        I’ve given so much money away to the poor, I can’t even relate to the ‘pissed’ you’re stating over the 10 percent to the church… aiyo..

        Sad, man, sad..I feel sad about the whole situation…

      • Even if NCC had not invested in Star, it would still be developed into a mall and the arts centre undertaken by someone else…

        Try talking to the food operators, including the coffe shops in ghim moh area, and tell me they complain about the many people spending money on food each Sunday.

        Blessing or bane?

        If we want a forever quaint & quiet village charm, Singapore is the wrong place. Maybe the south of France, or a small fuel town is more suitable.

  • Hi Jm,

    I’d have stopped here but the fact that you just assume we’re all brainwashed somehow, by the church. We are not, I can assure you. 

    Supposed you’re a scientist who deals with germs and you tell me ‘lyn, you got to wash your hands often because there are germs that can make you really sick’. If I had never experienced the nastiness of the effects of germs, I’d say to you ‘what germs? I can’t see a thing’. But if I had fallen really sick before being infected by somebody I’m close to in proximity, then I’d begin to  grasp what you’re saying. 

    Its the same with Christianity, faith, miracles and tithing. You’ve got to experience it by yourself. Unless you do, you’re in no position to judge. So, the best way is to pray for it. 

    Years ago, I went to a charismatic church in KL. The pastor prayed over people with laying of hands. They have this thing called ‘slain in the Spirit’ where the power of the Holy Spirit comes on the pastor and the person he’s laying hands on would fall down when the power got too strong.
    I went out front to ‘experience this’. So, when the pastor ‘lay’ his hands on me and PUSHED me down, I had to succumb to ‘pressure’ and fall down on my own! 

    After that, I quickly got up, felt really embarrassed and left the church, never to return. My mom who was with me, made fun of me to the family and said ‘lyn was pushed over by the pastor and fell down at church’. I was so embarrassed because she was right. So, till this day I cast my eyes away when this is being done at church and try not to judge. 

    However, I know there are some genuine cases. God is not dealing with me in that way or yet, so that’s not what I’m convinced of. I’ll never say it does not exist. But, I sure do not belong to that church because I’ll never ridicule the things of God. However, as for faith and miracles, I’ve seen what it can do and I’ll never disbelieve. 

    • @lyn
      Congratulations – you will make good scientist – wanting to experience and verify. Skepticism is part of the process of believing.

  • @Ben

    Public commentaries comes with the tuft when u r a public figure – a consequence of having a large following. The Internet age ensures that is now extended to individual acts that intrudes in somebody else’s space.

    In the days of “big money” when high performance has been burnt into the firmware, expectations by those who are diciples and worship Mammon, have heighthen expectations. Like the ilks of Armstrong, Woods and the many wannabes, curiosity and perversity will dog their paths – some fawn at the titans, some celebrate and emulate, some anticipate and are fascinated by the almighty crash and disaster collaterals. The price of the privilege of raising money in a market place is public scrutiny – in professional sports, it is regular dope testing, in finance it is done by ratings agency and regulators, in public institutions, it is regulators and whistle blowers, in private life it is loved ones and family and in some conscience and HS.

    Judging the tree by the fruit? Or by the flowers? Or the scent? Or the colours of the foliage?Tink abt the metaphor we use and their implications…….

    Hopefully my interest wud be like reading a headline or blog for environmental aware in the world which may impact upon the tranquility and peace God has blessed me with.

  • i was disappointed, sad, & very unhappy once. Not anymore. I understood such ardent love for a pastor because I was once the same, if not more faithful. One would not realize one is idolizing a pastor until one saw the real thing. I mentioned one of the Sunday’s preaching regarding tithing that ex pastor Kong Hee should pay attention to because he has been making use of ‘out of context’ ‘tithing’ to get funds from the people. NCC is far more subtle and crafty in this aspect. Why don’t you go and search and find out about the topic tithing? I did not do so in my early years, and gave my 10% faithfully until I learnt that tithing has been twisted and manipulated by many churches. Actually, you don’t have to be mad if you don’t see what i see. I have to admit that it is not easy to wake up. I see most of us are the same, meaning that we will not listen to others honest opinions until we ourselves wake up by ourselves. You know why the amount collected from ‘miracle seed’ was not revealed this time where previously it was shouted from the roof top ‘S$19 million,’ and subsequent year ‘S$21 million! It is just the same like everything else, the shockingly negative facts will not be brought to light. Have the church goers get to see the church’s income & exp statement thru the years when all the money are from the people? The millions collected, where do they go to? investments or pay all the bank loan? The maintenance and upkeep of the new venue is sky high. How about the pastor selling his private property and luxurious car and downgrade to an Exec Condo and a nice Japanese car, with the money made goes to the church and other charitable organisations? Exe Condo or HDB Mansionetter and brand new Jap car too lowly for a man of God? Ask all the church members honestly, who appears to be the most vain, greedy and materialistic figure in the church? Don’t get mad. Carry on and give you heart and mind to a so called man of God if you love to. It’s entirely your life.
    Heard this hundreds of times? “the Israelites boast of their performance, their ability to keep the law. They said they do not want grace but they want the law!” Go and search all the diff versions of bible, see if you can find or is there any line that the people asked this from God? “If confession is so important, than Paul would have done the bible injustice that he never mentioned confession even once!” Paul wrote more than half of the bible!” This same preacher will never tell you that by the same token, Paul never mention or even touch on tithing. As a matter of fact, tithing has never been money. There are so much, the preacher intentionally drop some context and select and exaggerate on one or two lines and you think is is awesome. I was once like that too. Sincerely wrong is not the same as intentionally preach it in a way to achieve one’s agenda. Never mind, dear brothers & sisters. Continue to believe what you want to believe. Great leaders, prime ministers, religious leaders do a lot of good, and in the midst of their good deeds, they love money and will never admit that and even preached otherwise. You will never learnt the bible as a whole and in context even if you attend this church for more than a decade. You will be good in mimic the pastor’s repetitive and familiar lines. You have watched him in hillsong conf.,Israel trip preaching, Lakewood church US, it is all the same body gestures, same performance, same lines, same acting. Charisma is really a seduction on a mass level.And a crowd will attracts a crowd. He is truly blessed because of us, a bunch of sincere but gullible God seeking people. Do not reply or write back, as I see more clearly than ever as not to try to show what another does not see. I will not spend time again writing in blogs commenting on subjects like this. By the way, there is no jealousy or being cynical. These 2 words frequently use by the pastor have injected deeply in many church people. I do not wish to mimic him any more. Remember the ex pastor Joshua? He preach the same if not using more props and demos. Anointed? Great lack in charisma and stage presence compare with JP. God put words in their mouths? Go on and believe so if you choose to. Blessings. In JESUS we trust.

    • There will always be doubts about pastor prince…. Why don’t he? Why don’t he?

      I used to attend a smallish AOG church at whampoa area, and the church invested heavily in the Philippines, building the church, and adjoining extensions etc. The daughter of the senior pastor “happened” to be a minister based in the phillipines. when the grandson was ready for primary 1, they moved to Singapore & were part of the church office…. leaving only because the Filipino son in law (also a pastor) could not adapt.
      Up till today, I felt it was a conflict of interest.

      Well, because it is a small church (which became smaller when members left to join other churches), it is sort of “ok”.

      The pastor never talked about “prosperity”, but they are prosperous themselves!
      The pastor never discussed about prosperity, but they were always squirreling their $$$ all the time (I was classmates with the pastor’s daughter)

      So, I would rather a pastor like JP who dares to talk about the hard truths and give you answer from Lord Jesus Christ,

      Sure, my non Christian friends think I’m brain washed, as well as mwv&some-digits etc, but let’s just see who’s got the last laugh 60 years later.

    • You know what I think Lina? NCC went downhill beginning of 2004. You could sense it. The presence of God became less and less and the sermons became more and more mechanical. I believe it was a great church, but somehow it changed. It is no longer the same church I used to know and love. I have been at NCC for 10+ years. We used to have Bible Study, these days, there is only 2 real services. I don’t feel the love from the people at all. Something is not right. I can’t articulate it into words, but something inside me is restless and fidgety. I prefer not to take the risk. I’m jumping. Fortunately, a friend of mine invited me to his church. Small and humble, but there is a peace in me, so I’m going. Who gives a hoot about fancy lights and nice chairs and state of the art rubbish? Better a meal of vegetables where there is love, than a fatted calf where there is strife.

      Honestly, I REALLY think they started well, but I’m not so sure if they will finish well. Apparently God told JP (by his own admission) to go without salary, but it took him 6 years to override the council’s decision. I suspect there is something to this. It’s terrifying to know that the pastor is disobedient to God.

    • I was blessed by Ps Joshua’s preaching. I didn’t care if it was JP or Ps. Joshua preaching on a midweek service.

      I was definitely there, because I was hungry for the Word of God. It was slowly later I noticed that the crowds are lesser whenever JP isn’t preaching. This is not giving the Word of God the equal standing regardless who was delivering it. As far as I know, Ps. Joshua was just as good in preaching, but was not so good at the jokes. I was there for the Word, not for the jokes, and I didn’t care.

      I really wonder what is the REAL reason why he stepped down. We will never know I guess.
      He is a founding member of NCC, and someone JP knew since Secondary School. He was the “2nd in command” for a long time. I wish they’d just be honest if it was a disagreement. The Bible didn’t censor anything when Paul and Barnabas separated.

      Like Lina, I no longer feel that there is enough transparency. Something just didn’t add up. Something doesn’t feel right. So, I am searching around if anyone else feels the same way I do.
      Too many other events that contribute to this. Not just the few that I mentioned,

      • There are many visitors whose home churches are not NCC. Not surprising lesser crowd when JP not preaching. I visited other churches whenever they invite anointed preachers from overseas. Why not you hold a Christian Conference at Indoor stadium for free and see the response?

  • It is amazing that everything not revealed to the public and you still got to know about it somehow.

    I do not idolize the pastor and I take offense that you say that. I have my own church in my country but I also see the love in the pastor that I do not see in you.

    I have views that differ from him but I will never say the things you say about him. If you are so convinced bring it up legally against him. Do it in the light and not in the dark. Bring it up to a place where he can defend himself to you.

    The Israelites wanted the law so badly that even today, 2000 after Jesus came, they are still chasing law. That is why they rejected Him. What’s wrong with that?

    Just because you think you ‘see’, does not mean you’re right.

    I am very sure he contributes the 10 percent or more to the church. Why should he drive a Toyota when he can afford a Porshe? Just to please you?

    If everybody is like you, vindictive over tithes and offerings, how are we going to upkeep any church? Be it pastor’s salary, worker’s salary, maintenance etc.

    Why should pastors who work for God be poorer than us who work for men?

    It is sad really..money is the root of all evil, isn’t it? It brings out the worse in a person.

    When we give the church, we do it unto the Lord.

    Hebrews 7:1
    This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him,

    Hebrew 7:2
    and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means “king of righteousness (Jesus)”; then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace (Jesus).”.

    If Abraham gave a tenth, why can’t we? It’s a privilege.

  • @Lyn
    Tithing for God’s work is never an issue – tithing to support a lifesyle of the rich and famous in. Like renting a villa for 20K in hollywood, flying first class or private jet (if it was a love-gift without strings attached it will be truly a blessing of God) or having an obscene salary – >S$150K a year
    IMO anything is OK providing one is transparent and “truthful” about showing the accounts in a manner even a 6 year old can understand – mostly we have spophistication to befuddle and confuse like some investment/bank statements and requires considerable skills to decipher
    If JP wanted to such, then Treasurer/JP cud easily inform his stakeholders – ie people who are “members(defined by Memrandum of association of NCC)” of NCC on the current stakes. Guys like us/general public have only a curory and passing interest as we are unvested

    My interest in this blog is about how people are utlilizing their beliefs/faith to live their lifes. Unlike you, I make no judgement on Lina’s motivation or beliefs. Would be delightedto be proven wrong in my hypothesis – large institutions creat their own hubris that will eventually overtake them.

  • @Lyn (or anybody at NCC) – since all concur with JP’s teachings – was told by friends to watch a short youtube clip about JP’s prediction that God is about to do quantitative easing(QE) on his own in 2013!! All those that invested(sowed) faithfully in the Kingdom thru one of God’s authorized agent(s) would partake in the rich returns of 10X, 100X or even zillion fold. This statement is interesting to me as a pseudo-scientist, we now have a “belief/faith” that can be time tested – 2013 ends on 31Dec – assume God knows about our Gregorian calendar, we sud expect an incredible new year in all manner of economic and social affluence for only believers or does the tide lift everybody else??

    He has been shown the signs of God – portended by the abundant snows and rain in Israel during the last few months – guess only God’s very anointed will have ability to foretell the future – see
    http://www.youtube.com/user/JosephPrinceOnline?hl=en-GB&gl=SG

    There are many signs of global economic uncertainty, also in Singapore – check the CNY goodies discount sale at Chinatown esp the bak-kua indicator – no que??

    Imagine a short will payoff more than a long but hey, it is CNY…..Gong Xi Fa Cai….HUAT Ah!!
    (qualifier, I cannot foretell the future, only guess through data trend sets……you are the final arbiter of your investments)

  • JM,

    About the clip, I can’t watch it. I’m traveling at the moment. The pastor has a spirit of faith that is stronger than anyone I know. I have the same faith so I understand that kind of language, so to speak. You have a spirit of a pseudo-scientist and calls all my experiences ‘garbage’. It’s the same way. If there is reason why so many are attracted to him it is because of this faith.

    I think JM, you have confused the issue. 

    Lina is complaining against the pastor of NCC. The pastor of NCC happens to pastor church of thousands upon thousands, an author and a great teacher. A respectable man. He may have taken salary from the church before but not now.

    Lina is saying that this pastor is even worse in craftiness than another pastor who has been (I respectfully submit here) been charged in a criminal court. 

    This is very unfair. 

    I think the whole issue boils down to respectability. I am talking about CHC here. To be fair once the tithe is given to the church, it is up to the church committee how to apportion the money.  Once the pastor is paid the salary, it is really up to the pastor how he spend it. 

    I think, however, as a church pastor, one must be respectable. Because humans are very judgmental they will look at the pastor’s life when spending their hard earned money.

    So, when a pastor runs a mega size church and has a pop star wife living overseas, I think that is strange and will incite all kinds of comments. 

    On the other hand, NCC pastor, to be fair, not exhibiting any of those strangeness. He earns his own money, his wife is at home and very pretty. He encourage people to tithe to build and run a church. I don’t understand the comparison at all. 

    Anyway, brothers and sisters, let’s all tithe 10 percent to our church. I feel sad when some pastors are struggling to make ends meet. One pastor of a church I’d gone to even cry in front of the congregation to ask for money. I think all pastors should be bold and encourage a 10 percent tithe. This is not wrong. You encourage 10 percent, you might get 5 percent. Otherwise, the people will give a SGD2 and feel proud of themselves. All kinds of Bible verses can be invoked to support this encouragement. 

    I don’t think by doing this we will think you love money. It’s just that as a Christian and a church goer, it is our God-given responsibility to tithe properly. In the book of Acts, they used to put everything at the apostles’ feet. Otherwise, pastors who carry out God’s work live like a pauper and the congregation who are being blessed every Sunday go home and jia pa pa (to borrow blogpastor’s hokkien term).

  • Please forgive me for using the word ‘craftiness’ up there. I used it to copy what Lina said. I don’t know the CHC pastor at all and I do apologize. However, if I’ll be the first to admit that in my case it’s the pot calling the kettle black because although i’ve not exhibited this ‘strangeness’ in a church setting, it has occured many, many, many times in other areas of my life 🙂

  • Isnt Craftiness defined as deception with evil intent?

    My tots are abt speaking “truth” – presumedly it will exclude those who are “unconscious incompetents”

    This is really a modern Gideon’s (fleece) test to ensure it is really from God …..maybe the test will be considered unfair.

    Popularity does not make a view truthful …….in fact false beliefs are undoubtedly more population than truth. Maybe Margret Mead ( an anthropologist) was astute is observation the mostly evolutionary advantage of human species is the ability to LIE….makes possible our many myriad and complex social relationships.

    • JM,

      Firstly, you cannot take a part of a sermon out of a whole sermon and make a judgement on the whole thing. This is also strange. :)..a faultfinder, it is called.

      I had done exactly as the good pastor had done before. It is not lying. It is a blessing. When a very poor pastor needed some money, I decided to make a collection. I had given her many times before in my own, so I wanted some help with it. I wrote to everyone saying that whatever amount the people would give, I pray and I bless them with this, that God would bestow upon them 7 times what was given. Everybody took it in good spirits. Anyway, I do not expect you to understand these things.

      Well, thank goodness you’re neither attending nor tithing to NCC. Otherwise, they’d have to produce scientific datas, spreadsheets, financial statements which a 6 year-old (especially if one has a 6 like my very own :)) could understand, data trends sets, etc. etc. I just pray that the church you go to is a very small church with very few members and the pastor is very good at math and lots of free time on his hands to answer all your queries.

      • @ lyn
        Generally beliefs are based a presumption that it will/has come to past ie it has happened previously – the only belief without heritage wud be revelation – presume if humans are wiped out then there will be no more history . When one prophesy, and it is real or truthfully , then it should come to past.

        One think the statements made in the clip are implicit and has no ambiguity about it – generally my limited experience with God is simplicity and elegance – no needless sophistication.

        Readers sud made judgements for themselves

      • @Lyn
        Everything around NCC seems to be about daddy god- money – prosperity-tithes-miracle seed-100fold-haute coutre garbs-luxury cars-mansions-yachts-private jets return etc and yet attendees always disavow love of money. The behavior does not seem to match the rhetoric – obsession with prosperity seems to be a euphemism to take money from the equation.

        Seems like my banker telling me that his bank is not really interested in
        Using my cash to enrich themselves – usually perhaps me as an after thought. They use euphemism to hide the risk like “principle protected,” – eg Lehman etc. not dissimilar to JPs proclamation about blessings – if he does not know then sud he invoke Gods franchise? Is it ethical or honest to obtain donations this way? You are happy and satisfied with this sort of bahavior and practice?

        The private equity guys are more honest – we share in eating what we kill by facilitating a buyout. Even the fees they make are transparent to us and we understand somebody has to pay for the analyst and legal expertise.

        Generally my gifts are without strings and often anonymous but it after due diligence as after all I am the steward.

        • Hi JM,

          I don’t think that this is all that is taught there. As lina says, 95% is something else 🙂

          However, whichever church we go to, we all have to read the Bible for ourselves. The way the Lord deals with the pastors may not be the way the Lord deals with us.

          We are all forgiven people, bought by Jesus by His blood. There is a call to lead holy lives. This is not something that I can write about to change people’s minds about. It is also not something that can be taught by any pastor. It is our own journey. When the time comes, the Lord will knock us in an area that does not satisfy Him and then we will have to make a choice. His way or our way. Please Him or please ourselves.

          So reading the Bible is essential. A sincere desire to please Him with our lives is also important.

          Empowered by the Holy Spirit, we can do all things.

          There are many writings of Paul which are being left out in the teachings of NCC. About this, I agree with lina. I think pastor Prince teaches Radical Grace so much so that he fears that any teaching ‘resembling’ the law would get the people back into the avenue of the law.

          This is not possible because once one recognises that everything is by Grace, that we cannot do anything unless empowered and taught by the Holy Spirit no matter how sincere the intention. The Holy Spirit will have to possess us in order for us to do the things that we are called to do (ask God, ask God).

          I am a working progress, however, I have experienced living without the empowerment of the Holy Spirit and with. It’s just like Paul before and after Grace. He persecuted God’s people before the Holy Spirit and he loves God’s people after. In both stages cases he tried to draw close to God. One is without the power and the other is with the power.

          I love this portion of the Bible though..

          Romans 12:9-21

          Marks of a True Christian

          9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit,[a] serve the Lord. 12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. 13 Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.

          14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly.[b] Never be wise in your own sight. 17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it[c] to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

          I have read many books on people experiencing ‘near death’ experiences. Both from Christian and non-Christian perspectives. Those people who encountered this always have this to say. That they encountered a ‘power’ and it can be best described it as ‘love’. The Christian kid calls Him ‘Jesus’, the Christian adults calls it ‘love’, the non-Christian calls it an overwhelming emotion i.e. love.

          So, I think we will have more or less reach the mark once we learn to love genuinely. Christians and non-Christians alike 🙂

  • To mnw and some digits,

    You mentioned you have experienced God’s power….

    Errr… So what?

    The Pharisees saw Jesus in person, witnessed His miracles, but did they believe?

  • I like your style of bloging. I “Chew” on Sunday’s sermons from New Creation Church at my site. under the Cat: Sermons review from New Creation Church. I take notes at Sermon time then refer to the Bible and “Chew” them one more time. Over the years, I grow in my spirit this way. The Holy Spirit become my guide. I hope you can do so too.

  • 10/2/2013 – Sermon on blessing for Chinese New Year
    Posted on 11-02-2013 by Sylvia Sim – http://www.giftsgiving.com

    In all cultures a New Year means a new beginning, a chance for a fresh start. To a Christian; it is like a “born again” feeling. Chinese usual greeting is ” Wishing you a happy and prosperous New year” – Let us seek deeper into this greeting, that branch out to many as follow:

    Traditional greeting: 招財進寶, 盤滿砵滿 – Jesus said: “Anyone who believe in me may come and drink! For the Scriptures declare, “Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.” John 7:38 ( it is a overflowing, a abundance of everything.)

    Traditional greeting: 萬事如意 – “The Lord will open to you His good treasure, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand.” – Deuteronomy 28:12

    Traditional greeting: 恭賀新禧 , 笑口常開 – “The Lord is my shepherd; I have all that I need.” Psalm 23.

    Traditional greeting: 萬事如意, – Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more then we might ask or think. ” – Ephesians 3:20

    Traditional greeting: 大吉大利 – – “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love … I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name. “John 15:9 – 16

    Traditional greeting:生意興隆 – ” But those who trust in the Lord will find new strength. They will soar high on wings like eagles. They will run and not grow weary. They will walk and not faint.” – Isaiah 40:31

    Traditional greeting: ”添丁發財 – ” The Lord will give your prosperity in the land he swore to your ancestors to give you,(that means all the promises God give to father Abraham will be ours) blessing you will many children, numerous livestock, and abundant crops. ” – Deuteronomy 28:11

    Traditional greeting: 五福臨門 – 5 means Grace/Jesus – Believing in Jesus bring us the following blessings:

    1 – Long Life – God is never angry with His creation: – MAN. He want to bless man with long life: John 3:16 – For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. v17 God sent his son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. – through Jesus, we gain eternal life.

    2 – Blessed blessing – God created man on the 6th day. He prepared and equipped the whole world well, for man to enjoy. That place is called the “Garden of Eden” . In the same way, when we believe in Jesus, we are covered by Jesus’s grace and seated with Jesus at the right side of God. We are Blessed this way as we are believers of Christ.

    3 – Healthy peace – Jesus said:” I am leaving you with a gift – peace of mind and heart. And the peace I given is a gift the world cannot give. So don’t be troubled or afraid.” – John 14:27

    4 – Good Work – “They are like trees planted along the riverbank, bearing fruit each season. Their leaves never wither, and they prosper in all they do.” – Psalm1:3 God bless us by putting us at the right place and at the right timing.

    5 – Good ending – The last part of our life on earth is the hardest: No matter how rich, famous, loved by men; we still have to walk alone to death. No one can or able to help us suffer all our illness, aches and pains. Only focusing on Jesus can our suffering be a peaceful joy.

    John 14:2 -3 ”There is more than enough room in my father’s home. If this were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? v3 When everything is ready, I will come and get you so the your will always be with me where I am.” Jesus give us eternal life. Death is but a transformation to another world. We do not have to fear “hell”. Neither are we lost during the transaction to another world. Jesus will be our guide when the time come.

    Traditional greeting: 年年有餘 – We live an abundance life; one that is overflowing of our creator God. Malachi 3:10 “I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing that is too great, you won’t have enough room to take it in! Put me to the test! v11 Your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease. Your grapes will not fall from the vine before they are ripe.” v12 ” Then all nations will call you blessed, for your land will be such a delight.”

  • The generic question is whether a christian businessman running say a theatre should open up for shows which may not bring glory to our Lord even though he/she may not condone the content of the show or act but has a say in deciding what shows to stage.

  • @Sylvia
    thank you for that beautifully written article. I learnt from it especially about the Good ending. We can always ask the Lord for a peaceful end, no disease or sickness, no aches or pain, just go off in our sleep, instead of asking for prosperity all the time 🙂

    @JJ
    what in the world are you saying? are you 12? thumbs down.

    🙂

      • Please read the bible carefully my friend. Don’t blaspheme against the word of God. Because it appears you are but i won’t judge you, because i should not. God will judge you and those who follow your ways. I keep praying for your repentance. May you and your followers continue to see the light. Not the light of Gold but the light of the Lord that brings you riches in your heart and soul not riches in your pockets of Gold. Repent says the Lord for these ways will only weigh your soul and drown you when you try to reach for salvation. Repent and find the one true way, the one true God.

        • Hi Sean,

          Salvation is had when one confesses with your mouth and believe in you heart that Jesus is Saviour and Lord.

          A businessman would naturally pray that God prospers his business and make him very rich.

          A mother prays that her kids would prosper.

          Pastors do pray that God prosper their ministry, send people to them to minister to and money so that he could do the projects to help the needy and to have more money to enjoy with his family.

          I pray that I would prosper so much that I can take first class where ever I fly to.

          I also pray that I’ll always have enough money to help all those who come to me for help whether it is a house or surgery they need or a nice handphone.

          As a child of God I think I should ask My Father for such things.

          What is wrong with this Sean? Are you praying that I do not pray for such things?

        • @Sean
          Confused – what are you “hinting” at? Just let your one be just a simple 1.0 – no need to invoke God as His ways are certainly not any of ours even though we all try very hard.

          Are ” word of faith” practitioners stressing prosperity and health fakes? Do discern and decide for yourself – MAN is a meta stable entity organism that has a very finite existence – beliefs changes with experiential life encounters altering reality for the individual.

  • Visit Singapore last year just to go to NCC…first time out of country…standing in the que…what a joy and a privilege…those people are for real…the most humble friendly God-loving Gracefull people ..still get mp3 sermons so wonderful to be part of that even in other country….No men can close a door that the Lord Jesus had openend…see how the Bejamin Generation bring Glory to our Lord God…God Bless Shalom!!!!!

  • Would love one day to visit the star. Pastor Prince messages have been a blessing to me. From Africa,Kenya, Nairobi. Peace y’all

  • In a typical week how many services does NCC have and their timings?
    Is it true member pay for tickets to for church service?

  • NCC holds services at 8:30am 11:30am 2:30pm 5:30pm, and free entry:)

    A short insight to the gospel of grace:

    I will cut straight in so if too long it can cause huh so long sian dun want read. so ill keep it short.

    The gospel of grace was first preached by Paul at the Southern steps. paul says in the bible, WHEN SIN ABOUNDS, GRACE SUPER ABOUNDS. Now, many ppl act smart and help Paul rewrite it as WHEN U SIN MORE, GRACE WILL SUPER ABOUND. Notice the difference from what was said in the bible and what ppl try to rephrase it. The rephrase is ok, but not okay when the rephrase is completely off!!!

    Grace is there for us as we humans were born into this world with sin, jesus died on the cross for us. he was sent by god to die at calvary cross. Some of u might ask god so perfect snap finger and reset lor, why send jesus so ma huan. Now, god wants us to worship him with free will by choice, if he snap finger make all things good, then man do not have free choice, and God does not want Robots to worship him.

    God loves u today my friend, prosperity , health why ? Okay when jesus had died , we have all things given by god now. If u accuse NCC of preaching prosperity gospel. well i assure u pastor prince is not preaching prosperity gospel. sorry got too long but keeping as short as i can alr.

    Pastor prince is preaching gospel of grace. If god sent jesus for us, he gave jesus to us to save us from eternal death(hell). Then if god withold prosperity and health then isnt it god saying oh…..prosperity is bigger than jesus, health is bigger than jesus? Of cos not, so prosperity and health is added to us because jesus overpaid our sin debt. If any christian is not showing these fruits, then it is because of the lack of faith, wrong believing, unbelieving. Dont blame god for being unfair.

    it is free to everyone to recieve theblessings of god. No longer feel condemed but be greatly and deeply loved by the Lord Jesus Christ.

    If u want to accept Jesus say this prayer in ur heart and I welcome u to attend any of the 4services at NCC on sundays.

    Dear God,
    I believe in u that u have send jesus to die on the cross for my sins. today i know that i am fully forgiven and all the blessings of god shall be added unto me. i shall not lack, i shall not suffer as jesus has overpaid my sin debt. U are my lord and saviour, thank u Jesus, and i now accept u and recieve from u all the days of my life. Thank u jesus that today i am free born again and that i am now a new creation. I need not be feeling condemned anymore.

    In jesus name i pray, Amen

    • @ Grace

      About Grace of God vs the Law/Word of God, to paraphrase Paul at GAL.2:16,…
      ….humans are justified for salvation(=everlasting life) by believing in Jesus Christ(John.3:16), and not by keeping Moses Law(or any other Law, eg Sharia Law, Common Law, etc)
      ….The avoiding of evil deeds and doing of good deeds by keeping certain laws could only give a good and long life on earth, and vice versa.(DEUT.28, GAL.6:7) Without Christ/Savior, a good and law-abiding human will still end up in hell after he/she dies.(JOHN.14:1-7, MATT.19:16-)

      But this does not mean that Moses Law is redundant/obsolete/inapplicable to Christians bc people can only know what is a sin/evil-deed by studying the Law.(ROM.7:7) In fact, HEB.8:10 & 10:15 say that the Holy Spirit requires the Law to be learned b4 He could operate in the believer.

      At ACTS.15:28-29, God has exempted new Gentile Christians from most of Moses Law, except for 4 simple laws of Moses, so as not to over-burden them.
      ….Notice that they were not exempted from ALL the laws of Moses. They had to start their new born-again lives as spiritual babies, by heeding 4 simple laws of Moses, ie abstain from eating food that had been offered to idols, from blood, from things/animals strangled and from sexual immorality. This was their spiritual milk.
      ….From there, they r supposed to grow spiritually until they could feed on solid spiritual food or the laws/Word of God.(1COR.3:1-3) How.?
      …They should learn to keep the laws/Word of God that are not burdensome, eg most of the moral laws of Moses.(EXO.20, LEV.10:9 & 18:22, DEUT.18:9-14, etc) They should exempt themselves from any law of Moses that is burdensome, eg circumcision, kosher food laws, keeping Sabbath Friday, sacrificing animals for unintentional sins/evil-deeds, etc.

      New GC should not remain forever in their former Gentile lawlessness.(MATT.7:20-23, 1COR.6:9-11, 1COR.5, HEB.10:26-31, REV.21:8) Those who do, run the grave risk of cursing God and die(like Job’s wife) or of self-deception, while suffering the consequences of their intentional sins/evil-deeds.(eg terminal cancer)

      Ps Prince’s Radical Grace teachings may be wrongly saying that God/Jesus is an evil Father who spoils His evil-doing children by pampering them or giving them what they desire, like those lawless n liberal parents who give in to the demands of their greedy child who had thrown a temper-tantrum in shopping malls or restaurants.(cf: HEB.12:11, ISA.9:6) Or like the vote-pandering President Obama who wanna give marriage certificates to homos/LGBTs and Amnesty to the Hispanic illegal(=law-breaking) immigrants.
      ….Such fathers are more like the devil.

      • Hello Let us Examine your four prohibitions:
        1. abstain from eating food that had been offered to idols- where is this in the Law of Moses
        2.from blood- Please note this is prohibited way before the Law of Moses in Gen 9 when Noah is now allowed to eat meat and God sets down to him the rules there in
        3. from things/animals strangled- It is obvious a strangled animal, the blood has not been shed and taking such meat is taking meat with the life (blood) in it which Noah was prohibited (“But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood….Gen 9:4)

        4. Sexual immorality- This is way before the Law is given. For example in Sodom, God says their sin is very grievous. And when the angels go to Sodom it is confirmed as they want to lay with the angels, it is clear to say one of their sins were homosexuality which is a form of Sexual immorality. Further Reuben forsakes his first born blessing on sleeping with his father’s concubine. It is very clear sexual immorality is wrong and God punishes people for this way before the Law.

        My point being what the gentiles were to keep is well before the Law of Moses.

        What is your understanding of the strength of sin is the law in 1 Cor 15:56 and 2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones.

        We are not under the law of Moses, we are under the new covenant of grace administered by the Holy spirit who is our helper.

        Ps Prince ministry preaches is Christ centered and does not propagate for sin. Your sentiments instigate that his ministry condones a sinful lifestyle while it is very clear from the bible that Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

        • Hello, please chew on this:

          HEB.8:10-11(NIV) =
          10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the LORD.
          I will put my LAWS in their minds and write them on their hearts.
          I will be their God, and they will be My people.

          11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest.

          HEB.10:15-16(NIV) =
          15 The HOLY SPIRIT also testifies to us about this. First He says:
          16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord.
          I will put my LAWS in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”

          • @npc – surprised u are using the Holy Spirit to buttress your assertions – hope for yet to be born again;)

    • @ Grace …….Also, like kings, Presidents and State Governors have the power to pardon convicted murderers/criminals from the death penalty or set them free from prison, Jesus Christ had the power to pardon or forgive sins/evil-deeds and release the intentional sinners from their curses/punishments, ie by healing, exorcising or delivering them. This was bc Jesus was God manifested in the flesh(1TIM.3:16) and the King of Kings.(REV.19:16)
      ….Oftentimes, Jesus warned those whom He had delivered to “go and sin no more lest a worse thing comes upon you.”(JOHN.5:14 & 8:11) This meant, Jesus did not offer repeated pardons/forgiveness for the same offense/sin/evil-deed.

      From biblical history, such miraculous powers of healing, exorcism and deliverance only proliferated during the eras of Moses(the giving of His Law) and Jesus(the giving of His salvation).
      ….After the passing of the apostles, such miraculous powers became very rare.

      This just means that in normal times, God/Jesus allows the law of the land to reign and He only intervenes with His power of pardon/forgiveness for sins/evil-deeds in exceptional cases. Like Jesus had said, believers should “render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and render unto God what belongs to God.” When Christians are law-abiding, nothing seriously bad will befall them=good and long lives on earth.(cf: Ps Kong Hee)
      ….Similar, kings, Presidents and Governors seldom exercise their power of pardon/clemency, except for rare cases. In normal times, they just allow the law of the country to reign, eg traffic offenders r issued summonses, thieves r jailed, murderers r executed, etc.

      If Jesus/God keeps on forever forgiving His unrepentant children for their intentional sins/evil-deeds and delivers them from their curses/punishments, what would the non-believers say.? When the non-believers see Christians sinning left and right without any consequential action from God, they would accuse God of being evil, corrupt, unfair and unjust.
      ….Not even kings, Presidents and Governors would do that, except for those evil n corrupt ones.

      Bear in mind, Jesus/God can forever forgive/pardon Adam’s original sin that all humans carry with them when they were born.(ROM.5:12) But this forgiveness towards salvation only becomes effective when believers die, ie Adam’s original sin that they carry in their bodies is forgiven and one day they will be resurrected or raptured with new incorruptible bodies(1COR.15:42), and will go to heaven, to be with God.

  • @grace
    Bloomberg wud call this a “shameless plug” for NCC

    Following yr synopsis on grace, “paul says in the bible, WHEN SIN ABOUNDS, GRACE SUPER ABOUNDS.”…….appreciate yr sentiments then…

    “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?”
    IMHO contextual fidelity is as important as sentiment – “the truth will set u free” is a promise from God which I try to claim in trying to straighten my own crooked path .

    • @ Grace, sorry I forgot to say I am born again and saved. But sure thanks for sharing the Gospel of grace which is the only gospel. I would sure love to visit your church but I am in another continent- Africa, to be specific in East Africa, country- Kenya, city- Nairobi. It is my dream to visit NCC.

      I have much admiration for Pastor Prince, his insights into the word: the hebrew, greek and principles of bible interpretation:- Context, Law of 1st Mention. I mean his teachings have revolutionized the way I study the bible. It is more easy to understand scripture and interpret scriptures.

      I love the way he teaches on us getting Jesus back on the pulpit, its all about Jesus and what he has done; all of Christ none of self. I mean I have never heard in my life anyone teach we are not under the Law, all I have been brought up is by obey- blessed, disobey- cursed. No one told me the cross changed everything. I knew we are under the age of the HS and grace. But my understanding of grace was that God treats us not like the OT but he is merciful.

      Pastor Prince preaching showed me what the bible says about grace, not just a topic but the person of Jesus.

      I am trying my best to bring this message into our country Kenya. Most preacher are against it, but I am happy. Pastor prince said if we do not get the same accusation paul got we are not preaching the radical message of grace he did. I once preached in my church on grace, there accusations came about…. i was sad then but I am happy now because I know I preached the unqualified message of Grace.

      From a general view, Legalism seems so fit in any average church. I am ready to be excommunicated from my church for this gospel. If I am, by God’s grace i will begin my own church and preach the gospel of grace to its pristine state.

      Keep me in prayer. I do not claim to have it all or fully understand the message of grace but i am glad this far my eyes can see God’s grace in every area of my life. I also have questions on pastor Princes teachings,not negative but positive to help us change the world with the message of grace.

      Shalom

  • Confessions of experienced and very successful former child prodigy “Pastor of Prosperity and Wealth” –
    Marjoe Gortne = check out 1:18:00 onwards – started preaching at 4 yrs old!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah7yoF1EfCY

    Succinct summary by Marjoe Gortne – ………. ” Can God cure a religious addict?”

    Do we have any local comparables?? Do decide for yourself

    Shalom.

  • A call for DISCERNMENT By Pastor Justin Peters – born with cerebral palsy and redeemed by the Lord thru his Faith

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IGHf5Z01Wg&NR=1&feature=endscreen

    This video is a recording of Justin Peter’s most recent chapel presentation at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary on September 30, 2010. It is not, of course, A Call for Discernment in its entirety, but rather a brief overview of it in which Rev. Peters presents a few highlights from each of the three primary sessions.

  • I became a believer at 12 and was filled with a joy deep down – in spite of circumstances that forced me to grow up overnight. As I came from a Taoist family, I was forbidden to attend church. The Holy Spirit was my personal Tutor and reading the Bible gave me much comfort.

    When I was 15, I joined a youth group which held their services on Saturdays. It was there that I was told that accepting Christ as my Saviour was not enough to guarantee my place in heaven after I die. That I needed to work for my salvation: obey the Ten Commandments, go witnessing and tracting, fast and pray, “serve” the Lord in church etc. It was almost like being introduced to another phase (and facet) of Christianity that was totally new to me. I began to doubt my salvation, felt self-condemned when I slipped, and eventually, lost my first love and joy. These feelings dogged me for more than 35 years…until I heard Pastor Prince preached the Gospel of Grace, and read his book, “Destined To Reign”. After all these years of wandering, I’m finally back to finding the same joy I’d experienced when I first encountered Jesus.

    It’s been a wonderful three years, and counting, hearing the Jesus-centred sermons that Pastor Prince preaches week after week. Not only that, I’d bought the entire available sermon CDs and watch his one hour broadcasts every Saturday on his website – to “catch up” on all those lost years of learning more about Jesus and His finished work. How much I’ve learned from this anointed man of God! Am I tired of hearing Jesus extolled over and over and over again? No!! My spirit within is always so lifted and refreshed because of Pastor Prince’s Jesus-centred sermons, instead of the man-centred “thou-shalt-do” preaching I’d been exposed to which were suffocating me no end. Not to mention too that my knowledge of the OT typologies, and Greek and Hebrew vocab have increased, I’m drawn closer to our Lord, my spirit “jia pa pa” and I’m already in “7th heaven”!

    As for someone’s accusation that Pastor Prince had preached the same old same old at conferences in Hillsong, Lakewood, Israel and possibly this forthcoming November USA tour — well, I’m sure glad he preached that very message when I first came to hear him speak. Likewise, there are many first-time “hearers” that need to hear this same Gospel of Grace like I did three years ago. Will I ever get “jelat” (nauseous) of hearing it? I hope not, because if that day should come, it will be a sure sign that my heart has waxed cold. How can anyone get tired of hearing about God’s super-abounding grace toward us?

    • I consider myself to be a baby Christian. I noticed that Pastor Prince is rather careful not to emphasise too much on “works”. Could it be possible that he does not want Christians to fall back on justification by works thereby killing the Spirits of Life?

      • But to just be a Christian and ‘not do anything’ is an empty faith. The Lord calls us to demonstrate our belief in Him through sincere acts of love and charity to others (which He himself has shown numerous times in the Bible).

        ‘What good is it my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm and eat well”, but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.’

        James 2:14-17

        • Dear Servant

          But how much work is necessary so that faith is not considered dead? Should we do everything that is stated in the Bible?

          • Newbies

            As long as we do our human best to love our neighbours with our own talents, resources and within our own unique situations – I believe that’s what He asks of us. How much or how little is needed is really very individual – only He knows.

  • I came from Pastor Prince’s church too. Learned about Grace from him. It’s all good but I did get tired of hearing him.

    I think there is a season for everything and I didn’t grow up much after a few growth spurts.

    I think people have a right to voice what they feel in their hearts. However, I did disagree with the many accusations. People should look for a new church when they have had enough.

    I am who I am today because of what I learnt there. I’d have not known how much God loves me and how special I am to Him had it not been for the pastor’s guidance. The knowledge of this love had been crucial in my beautiful walk with the Lord. My heart is very much for the Lord because of what I’d learnt. For this, I know the pastor has an important place in God’s plan for me. This is the reason God sent me there in the first place.

    Now, being a teacher myself, I understand how important it is to teach The Lord’s Grace to the people and get them firmly established in their righteousness in Jesus first even before demanding anything from them. To establish obedience, service or any kind of loyalty to the Lord, His goodness to the people must be expounded first. Once this is done, I think people can face hardship of any kind knowing there is hope and their faith in God’s goodness is firmly established. It is hard to obey and think of others when we ourselves are struggling either in terms of money, health or other emotional issues. I don’t fear much today because I know God is for me and God is with me.

    In my opinion, NCC supplies a lot of this confidence in God. However, I believe everyone needs to grow up from the ’supply’ stance of the pastor. I needed to grow in responsibility, accountability, obedience and service (amongst others). Otherwise, I would have become an ‘ineffective’ Christian who live only for myself and being taught 2 million ways whereby the Lord can bless me and bless me still.

    I’m sure it is this ‘failure to grow’ is what drives people who were under his ministry for years and years to speak out strongly against him.

    Having been blessed mightily by God and armed with great faith, hope and His love for me now I’m ready for:

    Other aspects which are not taught much in NCC.

    I have outgrown the feeding of milk and needed solid food
    Hebrews 5:14
    But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

    Also, how important obedience is to become a person after God’s heart
    Acts 13:22
    22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’

    Also, how important it is to serve
    Matthew 20:26
    26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

    Also, how much more important to submit to God’s will for our lives rather than to exercise our faith at all times. The former would quiet us down and be still before our God, the other would make us fight for mostly worthless things.

    Also, how important it is to love,
    John 13:34-35
    34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
    This ‘loving others’ would usually require us to dig deep in terms of money, time, commitment and effort.

    Also, it is really, really important to forgive others
    Matthew 6:14-15
    For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

    These are all not ‘law’, you know, it is to extend the Grace that is bestowed upon us so greatly by our Lord.

    How beautiful it is to grow up. My heart is not waxed cold. It’s just so hot I needed to channel the heat to others, so to speak.

    Reply

    • Congratulations on spiritual maturity – there is a wondrous and wonderful world out there — have fulfilling and most enjoyable journey walking with your God.

      • Thank you Journeyman, it has been wonderful, fulfilling, enjoyable and wondrous all at the same time!.. :). Thank You to my wonderful Father in heaven, my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit of God and to all the wonderful pastors all around the world in the quest to lead and guide the people to the best of their abilities… lyn

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