Blogpastor interviews Job

Dr Richard Teo’s illness, suffering and death raised quite a few issues. So I just had to request this interview with Job. I had to sit in the waiting area of his spacious mansion. He had lots of people lined up for appointments wanting to fellowship with him. That is how well known he is to eternity’s residents. Many of them identified with his sufferings and felt an unusual bond with him. Finally I was ushered into the sitting room. He was alone. It was my chance to interview Job of the Old Testament.

God restored Job's family and his wealthDo you feel able to talk about your past painful experience? You know I don’t want to rehash painful memories unnecessarily.

JOB:  Healing takes place when you enter eternity. You still remember bits and pieces but they seem to be bathed in the light of God’s love and you see things very differently. It’s like you have new eyes to see all those old memories with,  and everything is reinterpreted with an aura of glory. Sure, I can talk about it without anguish, the way a mother recalls the laborious birth of her precious child.

I was a very wealthy man. My wealth and assets just kept increasing. God was prospering me left, right, centre, literally everything I touched. My children were living it up and never had to lift a finger to work. My wife had a life of ease. We were proud of our possessions and we had good stewards and servants who slaved for us. Many claimed us as their close friends and I was generous in helping the poor and distressed. Frankly, even powerful chieftains envied me and coveted my herds and popularity.

(He looked down, sighed, and shook his head slowly.)

So you were greatly blessed and felt grateful to God.

JOB:  Yes I attributed the great increase of my wealth and the many sons I have to God’s blessing on me and I faithfully thanked Him with sacrifices of animals. Lots of sacrificial offerings. Some of the things my children did disturbed me, and their behaviour may have offended God. So I prayed much for them too.

That’s why it hit me hard and perplexed me greatly when all the calamities struck. I am sure you have done your research and you know I lost everything in wave after wave of natural disasters and attacks. All my servants, my herds and flocks, my properties and my sons and daughters were all swept away in one massive desert storm. I didn’t know what struck me. I had no time to react. All was lost within a day. Only my wife and my life were spared. I could not sleep. I didn’t want to see anyone. I did not eat. I was weeping day and night. My trust in God was shaken like a tent against a storm. Emotionally, intellectually and spiritually, I shook. The worse was when I lost my health and contracted an unexplainable medical condition and even my wife of many decades left me. Somehow I clung on to God Almighty. The way I see it now, it must have been His grace at work.

It must have been inexpressibly difficult for you. Thanks for sharing your heart. Millions have read of your plight in the Bible and have found great comfort and hope in your story. It was a severe trial by fire. Did you try to make sense of what was happening?

JOB: Naturally I did. I kept asking myself, Why did this happen? What did I do wrong to deserve this? Did my children’s behaviour offend God and trigger this judgment? If God is almighty why doesn’t He stop the storm and the hale and the marauders? If He loved me, didn’t He want to protect me?

I had some friends who came to comfort me but they were all of the opinion that it was because I had failed or sinned in some way unknown to me to cause such scorching judgment to fall on me and my family. It was deeply hurting to hear and their arguments stung like a viper’s bite: God was righteous and He could do no wrong. It had to be my fault: I had somehow failed to walk in righteousness. But I have kept the faith. I have fulfilled all righteousness – ceremonial as well as moral – as best I could as an upright man. Surely God could see that! Yes I strained to justify my faith and righteousness. My friends had probably looked at all my self-justification and thought, What a proud and self-righteous fellow!

So you were not able to reach a kind of conclusion or closure to your unexplainable sufferings?

JOB:  Well, you could say I didn’t and you could say I did. You see I had this encounter with God. He blew me away with a list of questions that sort of meant, I am your Creator and the almighty, sovereign and wise God: all you need to do is to trust Me even when you do not fully understand what’s happening to you or around you.

And that was it? Did that untie the knots for you?

JOB:  Frankly it did not answer my intellectual questions. It just gave me peace in the midst of mystery. I remembered how after that revelation, I simply sat in bowed silence and awe for days before the Lord Almighty.  I lived the rest of my life in reverence of the mystery of life and in gratitude of God’s sovereign grace.

Did your perspective of what had happened change with time and in what way has it matured?

JOB:  Of course it has. But it was not a maturing. It’s just that I now live on another plane of existence, on the other side of eternity. I now see the cross. I fully apprehend the depth and height and breadth and length of the love of God in His great sufferings on our behalf. I cannot see the suffering Son and say He did not care or love us. No way. I experience His love and wisdom in a heavenly dimension continually. I see all my past painful sufferings through the eyes of one who had been bathed in this pool of His incredible love and joy. There is no room in my heart for accusation or doubt or resentment of Him. Questions that bugged me when I was a child and thought like a child, rapidly dissipated like vapour in heaven’s air.

Did you say or do anything that you later regarded as childish or immature thinking on your part?

JOB:  Yes of course. My understanding of God was quite mechanistic, I suppose: If I am righteous, He will bless me, and nothing bad will happen. I had everything figured out in philosophical formulae. There was no allowance for mystery and the unexplainable in my life.

Some people in my generation think that you suffered because you feared specifically that all those terrible things would happen, and that’s why it came upon you: you sort of opened the door to evil in your life by your fears.

JOB:  I was afraid and I had my anxieties and exaggerated ideas of the worse that can happen to my family and business.  If such weaknesses opened the door to evil then I suppose there are millions of believers who would have such severe trials in their lives continually.   Since being on this side of eternity I have seen that God is greater than our darkest fears and He faithfully extends His hands of grace to his fearful and anxious ones as well .

May I ask what were your highest and lowest points in life?

JOB: The lowest point was when my wife gave up and left me. That came when I was already depressed.

My highest point? There were quite a few. The revelation I received from God of His attributes. Seeing how God restored my wealth double and gave me a new family.  However the highest point surely was being ushered into eternity and meeting Him face to face. Nothing could beat that!

What kept you going despite all the losses and pain?

JOB: I had this basic trust in God, and I did not want to die.

Having gone through such a severe trial, what advice would you give to those going through similar ordeals?

JOB:  Not so much of advice because advice does not really help people undergoing such profound suffering. They would need loving listening friends to be with them. I pray that people going through such severe trial will not lose hope in God. When they finally do feel that they have lost their hold of faith and hope, may they surrender and rest in His ability to uphold them.

My wish for them is that they would pray, Father I do not understand why this is happening, but I trust Your love and wisdom and power. You will work out all things for our good and for Your greater glory.

Would you want to go through such suffering again?

JOB:  Are you kidding?

Job, thanks for sharing these heavenly gems with us who continue to live in a fallen world full of pain and sufferings. We do not see as clearly as you do because we cling ever so tightly to our possessions and life as we know it.

JOB: You are welcome. Shalom my friend, see you an instant. I hope you know what I mean. Over here there is no sense of time.

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Comments

  • Great interview – u can become the Charlie Rose of the – concur that God is God and His mind is not mine – hopefully there are glimpses of His Grace peering through from time to time

    Thanks for settling my journey thru the many Orthodox cathedrals and kremlins all over Russia

  • I have a very different take on the story of Job.

    IMO,…….God permitted Satan to afflict Job bc he sinned against God by trying to buy Prosperity Insurance for his wayward grown-up or adult sons.
    ….I think Job was worried that his sons might sin and bring God’s wrath on him and his family. But according to God’s law, if his sons sinned, only they would be cursed by God.(DEUT.28:15)
    ….The very thing that Job tried to insure against, befell him.

    JOB.1:5 = So it was, when the days of feasting had run their course, that Job would send and sanctify them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all. For Job said, “It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” Thus Job did regularly.

    JOB.3:25 = For the thing I greatly feared has come upon me,
    And what I dreaded has happened to me.

    God forbids the intentional buying of insurance, eg health, accident, natural disaster(flood, earthquake, tsunami, etc) and life insurance.

    Similar to the good Jews, good Christians should obey God’s laws, avoid being foolish and ignorant, thru the empowerment of the Holy Spirit via the Word of God. This will result in them being protected by God from any untoward calamities, esp afflictions from Satan. As they experience peace in their lives, they will begin to have full confidence in God’s Providence and they will have nothing to fear.
    ….In fact, God blesses good, wise, Wordy and law-abiding Christians with much good fortune.(DEUT.28:1-2, 1JOHN.5:18)

    There is no need for good, wise, Wordy and law-abiding Christians to buy any insurance, unless such insurance has been mandatorily imposed by the secular govt. Good Christians who intentionally buy insurance are calling God a Liar or a God who does not keep His Word/Promise, ie they are saying that God may still send calamities to them even though they kept/obeyed God’s laws, avoided being foolish and ignorant.

    It is wise for good Christians to avoid buying insurance. If not, they will end up like Job, suffering the very calamities that they tried to insure against.
    ….Intentionally buying insurance is to sin against God or break God’s law and often done out of foolishness or ignorance of the Word of God.

    When all the calamities that Job dreaded fell on him, he was very perplexed but he did not give up his faith in God.
    ….Eventually, he repented of his error and he did not repeat his earlier mistake of trying to buy Prosperity Insurance from God. God blessed him with twice as much as b4 the calamities struck.

    JOB.42:6 = “Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.”
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    God does not test the faith of Christians by sending them serious or terminal illnesses or other disastrous calamities. God only tests the obedience of Christians to His laws.
    ….It is possibly a libel to imply that God may have frivolously sent such things to afflict Christians, just to test their faith.

    EXO.16:4 = Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.”

    HEB.5:8 = “…though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.”

    God may chastised Christians, like a good father disciplines his children.(HEB.12:11) Eg the father warns his children against certain bad behaviors. If the children go against his warning, the father will punish them. But I do not think God uses serious or terminal illnesses or physical torture to discipline His children.

    More often than not, it is the Christians’ own sins/law-breakings, foolishness or ignorance of the Word that brought about such misfortune on themselves; for the culmination of the wages of sin is death.(ROM.6:23)

    Do the police “suka-suka” lock up people just to test their faith in the legal system.?

      • @ Journeyman

        EXO.20:12 = “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.”

        If believers obey this commandment, God will give them long lives; so why the heck do they need life insurance for.?
        ….If believers break this commandment by neglecting to care for their aged parents, God will give them shorter lives than their parents. Such sinners will “benefit” from buying life insurance.

        It is better for believers to obey God’s laws and they will not have to pay for any kind of insurance. God will insure law-abiding believers for free. All they have to do is obey Him and His laws.
        _ _ _ _ _ _ _

        Insurance, in basic form, is similar to lottery gambling. Gambling is a form of stealing. All lottery buyers buy lottery with the intent of striking 1st Prize. All the losers contributed to paying for the 1st Prize winner. So, thru the lottery of chance, the 1st Prize winner “stole” money from the many losers. Whoever wins, the lottery company still gets its cut/profit, also from the losers.

        In life insurance, the “1st Prize winner” is the one who died early. All those who lived long(ie the “losers”) contributed to paying for the “1st Prize winner” who had a short life, ie pay to the beneficiary. In this way, money is “stolen” from all the losers who lived long.
        ….Whoever died early, the insurance company still gets its cut/profit from the “losers” who lived long. From statistics, the company knows that most people live quite long, as the average life-span is now about 75 yo for men.

        Lottery and life insurance, both, have many losers and very few winners. In lottery, the 1st Prize winner is truly lucky. In life insurance, the 1st Prize winner is “unlucky”.

        • I used to think like this, but the analogy with gambling is flawed.

          Gambling is an activity that you can choose to participate in. So if I don’t gamble, I can’t ever lose. But I cannot choose to participate in “life”. “Life” happens to us all whether we want to or not and sometimes bad things happen that we have zero control over.

          • @ben
            Everything u make a decision – u r gambling – outcome is not known or completely predictable controllable – risk or gambling technically means the same thing, one is more respectable
            but process is the same. Point if u do not assume risk then life will not progress as nobody will assume risk or make a decision. Abundant life to me is about ability to make a good decision without angst or anxiety. Some call it common sense or serendipity but it is really uncommon eg selecting the right doctor for treatment, having the right financial advisors, choosing the right technology, buying the right property – everything is chance and a decision has to made. Some prefer to be victims of circumstances – doing nothing is also a conscious choice

          • Yes I know. But I was answering Non-Pentecostal when he likened buying insurance to a form of gambling and therefore something sinful to be guilty about. I think that’s looking at things a bit too black and white, and nevertheless it’s still a wrong analogy. You mean to say that God cannot use an insurance policy as a means of provision?

            I mean come on. So taking on travel insurance just in case your flight gets delayed is a sin??? How about bringing an umbrella just in case it rains? The umbrella can be argued is a form of insurance too. All I want to say is, if we get persecuted by the world, let’s get persecuted for Jesus’s sake and not because of our man-made warped idealogies.

            Anyway if you want to call making general life decisions a form of “gambling,” then fine… We differ in terminology. Of course I know what you mean, but when I say “gambling” I mean the “going to the casino” version. The lust for money and a form of greed version. That “gambling” and making general life decisions “gambling” is not the same thing.

        • @ Ben

          That is why, it is of utmost importance for believers to be guided in their earthly lives by the laws/Word of God.
          …….Believers are able to know and differentiate between good and evil deeds from the laws/Word of God. Mankind is not born with such knowledge. Such knowledge does not come automatically when a believer is born-again of the Holy Spirit. Most Gentile believers are born-again as spiritual babies. They need to be fed with spiritual milk and later with spiritual food, which is the laws/Word of God. The power of the HS to help believers to walk according to the Spirit and not fulfill the lust of their flesh, is fully dependent on the Word.

          Obeying God’s laws will result in blessings from God in the life of a believer, and vice versa; ie, the intentional breaking of God’s laws will result in curses/punishments from God.
          ….Good, law-abiding, wise and Word-centric believers do not need to buy any insurance bc they will be blessed by God with long, healthy and peaceful lives.
          ….There are exceptions to every rule, ie some believers may be called by God to suffer persecutions and/or martyrdom, eg the apostles.

          Eg, if there are no double lines on the road to warn drivers against overtaking, many accidents and deaths would occur. This may abruptly terminate one’s journey in life on this earth. Such double lines on the road save lives and/or from financial loss.
          ….God’s laws or Moses Law serve the same purpose, ie to warn believers against committing evil deeds/sins, ie do not cross the line. This may save their lives and/or save them from financial loss. God’s laws or Moses Law is for the good of the believers’ earthly lives, as they journey in life. God’s laws are like warning sign-posts that appear on the road of life which believers journey on. They may be double-lines, speed limits, dangerous corners, etc.

          Being saved from hell is another matter. Heaven is reached only at the end of the believers’ journey in life on earth. Heaven can only be reached thru faith in Jesus Christ; not just by the obeying of God’s laws.
          ….God laws is applicable on earth. Faith in JC is applicable only on leaving the earth.

          Believers need the laws of God for their journey in life on this earth bc they will be blessed by God with earthly blessings, eg health, long life, contentment, etc. Such earthly blessings from God are also bestowed upon law-abiding atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.
          ….Believers should be aware that the obeying of God’s laws does not bless them with heaven at the end of their journey in life on earth. Only faith in JC can enable them to inherit heavenly blessings from God.

          The ideal believer is one who from young believed in JC and obeyed the laws/Word of God, ie like Job, being blameless, morally upright, loves God, shuns evil deeds/sins and have JC as his/her Savior.
          ….Another ideal believer is a young Jew who has kept Moses Law and then convert to Christianity.
          …….Such a young believer will receive earthly blessings from God, ie a long and contented life. He/she will not need to buy any insurance in his/her life. He/she will go to heaven at the end of his/her journey in life.

          Complications arise when Gentile adults who had sinned and carry a baggage of God’s curses/punishments with them when they convert to Christianity.
          ….Some also carry generational curses from their sinful idol-worshiping ancestors with them when they convert.
          ….The HS will have to work much harder and longer to cleanse them of such baggage.

          2TIM.3:14-17 = “14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
          ….16 ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

  • Job’s story is more about redemption than it is about suffering.
    Jesus’s handprints are all over this story.

    His first wife was of Arab descent, Sitidos (same root word for satan) who urged him to ‘curse God and die’ (bond woman-Law typified).
    His second wife was Dinah (judged, vindicated), a Jew, the daughter of Jacob (free woman-Grace typified).

    The story is divided into three parts-Job depending on his self effort (you know what he did), Job wishing for a mediator (Jesus) , and after Jesus came.

    Job wishing for a mediator

    Job 9:33
    33If only there were someone to arbitrate between us,
    to lay his hand upon us both,
    34someone to remove God’s rod from me,
    so that his terror would frighten me no more.
    35Then I would speak up without fear of him,
    but as it now stands with me, I cannot.

    After Jesus came

    1. We’ve seen God

    Job 42:5
    My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you
    This means the Jesus has come because as Non-Pentecostal up there knows no one shall see God and live in the Old Testament. Exodus 33:20. ☺

    In the new, Jesus said ‘whoever has seen me has seen the Father” John 14:9.

    2. In the work of redemption, we gain more than what we lost because

    Zechariah 9:9-12
    9Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion!
    Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem!
    See, your king comes to you,
    righteous and having salvation,
    gentle and riding on a donkey,
    on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
    10I will take away the chariots from Ephraim
    and the war-horses from Jerusalem,
    and the battle bow will be broken.
    He will proclaim peace to the nations.
    His rule will extend from sea to sea
    and from the River to the ends of the earth
    11As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you,
    I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit.
    12Return to your fortress, O prisoners of hope;
    even now I announce that I WILL RESTORE TWICE as much to you.

    Job 42:10
    After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD made him prosperous again and GAVE HIM TWICE as much as he had before.

    So, twice as much can only come via Jesus.

    3. The Lord was angry with Eliphaz and his two friends (the accusers) because ‘you have not spoken what is right’. (Please be careful what you say about God-They accused Job of not being righteous enough)).

    At the end, they had to offer burnt offerings (7 bulls and 7 rams-God’s number, Jesus) and Job’s pray saved them, a picture of God’s Grace.
    They were not dealt with according to their folly.

    4. The second part of his life, he will not depend on his burnt offerings (self effort) anymore because it is that that made him lose everything.

    He will now depend on God’s Grace because it is that which saved Him.

    5. The second part of his life, his sisters and brothers and everyone who knew him gave him silver and gold-prosperity, favour.

    6. His daughters are now mentioned by name Jemima (dove-Holy Spirit), Keziah (refined) and Keren-Hapuch (child of beauty-that is us) and given an inheritance (ours).

    After Jesus came, women were promoted (Praise you, Lord ☺)

    and

    He lived till 140 years (long life).

    Nothing to do with life insurance lah. (BTW I’m an insurance agent)

    No, no, I’m not ☺

    lyn

    • oops, sorry, the last bit to add

      By Jesus’s stripes we are healed

      Job 2:7
      So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head. 8Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.

    • Interesting findings.

      Especially the part about the names of Job’s wives and his daughters. I knew the part about Job wishing for a mediator between man and God, which now we have in Jesus, but never made the connection that a few chapters before he was justifying himself rather than God in the midst of his suffering. In other words, self-righteousness rather than looking to God for His righteousness and undeserved favor and mercy whatever the circumstance.

      Thanks. It’s something to think about more.

  • @ lyn

    EZEK.14:13-14 & 17-20 = 13 “Son of man, when a land sins against Me by persistent unfaithfulness, I will stretch out My hand against it; I will cut off its supply of bread, send famine on it, and cut off man and beast from it.
    14 Even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and JOB, were in it, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness,” says the Lord God.
    17 “Or if I bring a sword on that land, and say, ‘Sword, go through the land,’ and I cut off man and beast from it, 18 even though these three men were in it, as I live,” says the Lord God, “they would deliver neither sons nor daughters, but only they themselves would be delivered.
    19 “Or if I send a pestilence into that land and pour out My fury on it in blood, and cut off from it man and beast, 20 even though Noah, Daniel, and JOB were in it, as I live,” says the Lord God, “they would deliver neither son nor daughter; they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness.”
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    It is clearly stated by the Word of God that Job was able to deliver himself from all his calamities bc of his own righteousness, not bc of the righteousness provided by the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. JC only appeared on earth, about 2,000 years after Job’s death. It is impossible for Job to avail himself of the righteousness provided by JC.
    ….While suffering, Job did not curse God and die; he did not give up his belief in God. Eventually, he repented and did not repeat his earlier mistake/sin. This was accounted to him for righteousness, ie his steadfast belief, righteous deeds and his repentance. Job’s story has nothing whatsoever to do with the righteousness that is gained by believing in JC.

    It is also clearly stated by the Word of God that Job’s righteousness could not deliver his sons and daughters if they intentionally sinned and God cursed/punished them with famine, pestilence, colonization and destruction.
    ….This was what righteous Job tried to do, ie he tried to deliver his sons and daughters from God’s curse by buying Prosperity Insurance from God. JOB.1:4 says that his sons and daughters liked to indulge in revelry(GAL.5:21 & MATT.24:49). JOB.1:5 says that Job made offerings to God, asking God to forgive his children for their very likely future sins.

    There are 2 kinds of sins. Adam’s original sin caused Mankind to be born with evil hearts/flesh.
    Evil hearts/flesh–>sinful/evil thoughts–>sins/evil deeds.
    ….Job’s righteousness came from him not committing sins/evil deeds, ie by obeying God’s laws.

    Job’s foolishness came from him worrying about his children’s likelihood of committing sins/evil deeds.
    ….There is a Chinese saying, “Son grows big, son’s world”, ie parents should no longer interfere in their adult children’s personal choices in life.

    • This is the Greek Slavic Coptic version only ….not KJV or NIV….

      Testament of Job
      The Testament of Job is a book written in the 1st century BC or the 1st century AD (thus part of a tradition often called “intertestamental literature” by Christian scholars). The earliest surviving manuscript is in Coptic, of the 5th century; other early surviving manuscripts are in Greek and Old Slavonic.

      If we like the testament of Job rather than the book of Job, read on
      But let us not mix the two versional preference….

      The Testament of Job is a rewrite of Job, written in the first person from his viewpoint. It is a post-Biblical Judaic work (written either in the 1st century BCE or CE) lost by the Jews, later rejected as being non-Apocryphal by the Vatican but preserved by Copts. It is widely assumed to have emanated from the Theraputae, an ascetic Jewish sect described by Philo in some detail as egalitarian. The version we have today is in Greek and reads like a Greek tragedy and certainly the narrative is aligned to Aggadic versions of Job present in the Talmud.

      Job’s first wife is Sitidos (Sitis). Her name may have the same root as the word Satan in Hebrew or Sotah (unfaithful wife). She is a princess and Job a tribal leader. Her response to their destruction is to go out and earn a living. Eventually and unknown to her she sells her hair to Satan in exchange for three loaves of bread for her husband; it is Satan who puts the words “Curse G-d” into her mouth. She later comes back and pleads with Job to be allowed to go into the rubble of the Palace to recover the dead bodies of her children. Job tells her that they must be left and she takes herself off to lie amongst the cattle where she dies.

      Only after her death does she receive honour as the city laments her death. Job is restored and in a bizarre twist marries Dinah (a daughter of Jacob) and has 10 children by her.

      Yet Sitidos remains a tragic figure in this version, one whose suffering stands independently of her husband’s and raises questions of its own.

      • @ Journeyman …….Thank you very much for your clarification.

        IMO,…a believer should not be quoting non-Apocryphal books in debates as if they are the truth and the Word of God.

        ***EPH.6:14 = “Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,…”

        For a Roman soldier, if his armor does not have the belt(of truth), his breastplate would be hanging loose and swaying from side to side in battle.
        ….The enemy soldier would be able to easily use his sword to strike at and stab the Roman soldier’s chest, possibly killing him.

  • Hi Non-Pentecostal,

    Your argument of the book of Ezekiel would have been correct if the book of Job actually mentions that Job’s children have sinned against God by ‘persistent unfaithfulness’.

    But the Bible says this of Job’s children..
    Job 1: 5
    ..Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.

    All ten kids were judged and died because ‘perhaps they sinned’?

    The reason I stated earlier still stands. Job is a book that hides the wonderful redemptive work of Jesus.

    By His one sacrifice we are forgiven, blessed more than ever before, restored double for our troubles, made prosperous because he died poor, healed by His stripes, given the Holy Spirit, refined, made beautiful, even the least in our house are named, favoured etc etc.

    Today, brothers and sisters, if you buy insurance for your kids or yourselves, you are wise because those doctor’s bills can be crazy… ☺

    The whole Bible is one big treasure map pointing to Jesus.

    I can only name a few examples for there are too many to be mentioned here. Those that has been discovered, that is.

    Proverbs 25:2
    It is the glory of God to conceal a matter;
    to search out a matter is the glory of kings.

    Prophecies of the coming Christ in Genesis 3:15..he shall bruise you on the head etc, Malchizedek, the King of Salem, Issac…take your son and only son Issac, Joseph, rejected by his brothers and accepted them on the second coming, Moses not entering the promised land because he represented the Law and the one who brought them into the Promised land was Joshua or Yeshua or Jesus, the manna, the whole book of Leviticus, on all the different offerings, all typifying Jesus, the Passover, the book of Numbers, the Law of Sabbaths. The Book Deutronomy-The 10 Commandments and Jesus, the fulfillment of the Law etc. Ruth and the Kinsman Redeemer, Boaz, David in his Psalms, Isaiah, Jeremaih, Ezekiel, Daniel (4 men in the fire)…..etc.etc. Too many, too many to mention.

    And now Job..

    You name it, Jesus is there. And if He isn’t, it’s just a matter of time before we find Him there.

    This is supernatural book.

    Mark 12:35-37
    35While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christh is the son of David? 36David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:
    “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
    “Sit at my right hand
    until I put your enemies
    under your feet.”’i
    37David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”

    There is a saying in the Bible that says..

    Before Abraham was, I am.

    • @ lyn

      EXO.20:5 = “….you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,…”

      According to God’s law, the sins/evil deeds of the father that arouse God’s jealousy, can fall upon himself and his descendants, down to the 4th generation; and not vice versa, ie the sins of the son do not fall upon his father or ancestors, only on himself or/and his descendants. The repercussions for sins can only go “downline”, not “upline”.
      ….Serving Mammon or the relentless pursuit of money/prosperity arouses God’s jealousy.(MATT.6:24) The money-god is also an idol.

      Bear in mind that Job lived before God gave His laws to Moses, ie Job could not refer to the Torah or Old Testament for guidance. So, Job was ignorant about certain aspects of God’s laws/workings/thinking. Our discussion on the story of Job is based on 20/20 hindsight.

      Moses Law was not in existence in Job’s lifetime, but his sins/evil deeds, foolishness or ignorance can still fall upon his sons, even though they might not have committed any sins/evil deeds.
      ….It’s like the law of inheritance. Good fathers will bequeath much prosperity to their sons. Bad fathers will bequeath much poverty to their sons. Sons have no choice in their inheritance. Sons cannot reject evil/bad inheritance from their bad fathers. They have to accept whatever was bequeathed to them by their bad fathers and try to be better.

      Job was blameless, morally upright, fearful of God and shunned evil(JOB.1:8). This caused Job to be blessed by God with much prosperity. Slowly, the prosperity became his idol/Mammon. He began to greatly fear(JOB.3:25) losing all his prosperity. He began to worry that his sons might cause him to lose all his prosperity by sinning. JOB.1:4 may point to this likelihood.

      So, Job tried to prevent this from happening to him by making a presumptuous burnt offering to God for his sons’ future likely or probable or non-existent sins. This went against the normal priestly practice of making burnt offerings to God for unintentional sins that had already been committed.

      Job’s presumptuous sin/evil deed, foolishness or ignorance that was based on misplaced fear caused his sons to perish even though they had not committed any grave sins yet. This was bc the sins of the father can be visited upon his sons; not vice versa.
      ….If his sons had lived, their actual sins/evil deeds would not have caused Job to lose his prosperity; their sins would only cause themselves to be cursed/punished by God.
      ….According to God’s law, Job could only lose his prosperity by his own sins/evil deeds/unrighteousness.

      Now we know that Job’s fear was baseless. Job was ignorant of the fact that his son’s sins would not have caused him to lose all his hard-earned prosperity. If Job had lived after Moses, he would not have committed this mistake or presumptuous sin/evil deed.

      If Abraham had known that incest would cause barrenness(as was later revealed by Moses Law), he would not have married his half-sister, Sarah.
      _ _ _ _ _ _ _

      The OT has many prophesies about the coming of the Jews’ Messiah or the Christ. From 400BC to 0BC, the Jews waited expectantly for the coming of their Messiah/Savior. John the Baptist gave them an inkling about their Messiah’s approaching arrival.

      The OT has no teachings about being justified by faith in Jesus Christ for salvation(or redemption) and not being justified for salvation by the keeping of Moses Law. Only the NT has such teachings.
      ….I think it is not right to use the story of Job to teach about redemption thru Jesus Christ.

      HEB.8:5 = The priests serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things…
      HEB.10:1 = For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come…
      1COR.10:11 = Now all these things happen to them(OT stories) as examples, and they were written for our admonishment, on whom the ends of the ages have come.

      The OT is but a shadow. The NT is the real image, where redemption thru JC can be obtained.
      ….But that does not mean that the OT is irrelevant bc in this world an image always has its shadow. An image without a shadow may be a ghost.

      • Hi Non-Pentecostal.

        You said: “The OT has no teachings about being justified by faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.”

        But the subject matter of the whole OT is actually Jesus and His finished work, hidden like a secret. Didn’t Jesus Himself say that the Scriptures testify about Him?

        If you think your statement is true, then let me ask some questions:

        What does the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac and the ram caught in the thicket mean to you?

        Who is Joseph a type of? What is the significance of Joseph in Egypt with a gentile bride providing bread to the (gentile) world, after being sold into slavery by his brothers?

        What is the lamb in the sin-offering a type of? Why must the lamb be unblemished? Why must it be killed?

        What is the ark of the covenant a type of and the significance of the mercy seat and the blood sprinkled on it?

        Who is the Rock that Moses struck a type of (this one is stated clearly by Paul in Corinthians)? Who was the Rock that God told Moses to speak to but struck a second time instead? Why was the punishment on Moses so severe for striking the rock a second time? What is “striking the rock” a type of?

        Who is Boaz a type of? Who is Ruth a type of? What is the significance of Boaz redeeming Ruth?

        I gave you quite a few examples, but I’m sure this is only scratching the surface.

        Someone likened Scripture to a heavily encrypted picture book, resistant to tampering and sabotage, whose secrets can only be decrypted by the Holy Spirit. And all the pieces once unlocked ultimately fit together to testify of one person – that of Jesus Christ. As I myself grow in knowledge by God’s grace as time goes by, I start to see the truth in this more and more. The bible is really quite amazing stuff.

        • @ Ben

          It is a fact that the Jews do not believe in the NT and they believe only in the OT. Jews believe that they are going to heaven by keeping the laws/Word of God or Moses Law. They do not believe that Jesus Christ was their Messiah/Savior bc he did not deliver the nation of Israel from Roman rule 2,000 years ago. They are still waiting for their Messiah/’the Christ’ to come, as had been prophesied in the OT.
          …….The Muslims have also rejected JC as their Messiah and are also waiting for their Messiah to come, as had been prophesied by their Koran.

          By relying only on the OT stories that you have mentioned, please try to convince these Jews that their belief is wrong and that their Messiah, as prophesied in the OT, was JC. By relying only on the OT, pls try to convince them that they cannot be justified for salvation by keeping Moses Law and they can only be justified for salvation by having faith in JC.
          ….Please do not quote from the NT bc Jews do not believe in the NT.

          This is what I meant by saying that the OT has no teachings about being justified by faith in JC for salvation.
          ….It is only in the NT that JC, Paul and the apostles, connected the OT stories with the gospel message.
          ….If the OT, by itself, could teach the way to salvation, there would have been no need for NT and for the early Church to promulgate the Apocryphal Books of the Bible.

          Jews who lived before the time of JC, would not know about the way to salvation thru JC, by just relying from the teachings of the OT. All they knew from the OT was the teachings about how to properly keep Moses Law. The OT also prophesied about the coming of John the Baptist.

          MALACHI.4:4-6 = 4 “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
          Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, With the statutes and judgments.
          5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
          6 And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers,
          Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

          • The Muslims believe JC is one of the prophets of God and Mohamad is the last before God comes again – IMO since nobody knows God except that get glimpses ow n then – we sud be focussed on what a life of abundance means and how each become the salt n light on the hill – for me the theory is pointless if reality proves it wrong – searching for a Law of Everything – where physical and spiritual universes can be accommodated. Otherwise just attitudes, rituals but does not enable man to live to the potential God has ordained for each n everyone of his children

          • You said: “By relying only on the OT stories that you have mentioned, please try to convince these Jews that their belief is wrong and that their Messiah as prophesied in the OT, was JC”.

            Non-Pentecostal, it will be the greatest honor to show them the hidden truths of their own Messiah from their own Torah, as prophesied in Isaiah, if they really want to know. I’m sure it’s going to be mutually benefiting because I can learn more about their laws and feasts which themselves speak about Jesus. But frankly, you and I both know that even if I can show the meaning of verse upon verse, it’s really God that gives the understanding and a listening heart that receives.

            As an aside, it’s also said that Israel is spiritually blinded. Paul himself says so in Romans 11, where he talks about the mystery of the ages being revealed. There are also numerous prophecies concerning the blindness of Israel and their eventual acknowledgement of Jesus when He comes again. Maybe you can search this out yourself.

            Anyway, forget about the Jews first. What do YOU believe about the OT? Is it merely a historical account to you? A rule book perhaps?

            I gave you some clear shadows and types of Christ that I know in my last reply. You still haven’t told me what you make of those yet.

            Do you also know that even the formation of the camps of each tribe of Israel around the tabernacle tent formed the shape of the cross when you numbered them according to the order of their encampment? That may be what Balaam saw when he looked down on the Israelite camps from the top of Pisgah, and what God meant when He said He saw no iniquity in Israel.

            I mentioned before that Jesus Himself says that Scripture (or the Torah/OT) testifies of Him, and indicts the Pharisees for not believing in Him even though they are versed in Scripture. This is a DIRECT counter to what you are claiming. What do you make of it? Was Jesus talking about the NT which did not yet exist??

            Also, have you read the account of the two disciples on the road to Emmaus? Doesn’t it say that Jesus expounded to them from Scripture, beginning at Moses and the prophets, CONCERNING HIMSELF? What do you make of it? If Jesus was expounding on Himself from the OT, then it logically follows that the OT must contain at least some information about Himself, right??

            Anyway, I said all these not to try and sound complicated, but to convince you that the OT is much much more than a rule book.

            No. There is no room for debate here. The theme of the suffering Messiah who takes away sin is masterfully embedded everywhere in the Torah, even if it cannot be seen in a superficial reading. As said in Proverbs, it is the glory of God to conceal a matter and to search out a matter is the glory of kings (you and I).

      • Hi N-P,

        Of all the writers here, I find that you’re the most under the bondage of law (no disrespect intended-sorry). Even ‘Balanced’ up there is more ‘balanced’ than you are. 🙂

        Which is waste, really. Because you would have made a great ‘minister of the new covenant” because of your in-depth knowledge of the Bible.

        2 Corinthians 3:5
        5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

        I do not know what Ben and I could state here anymore to make you see that you’re heavily committed to the old.

        1. Curses do not apply to New Covenant Christians. I have given the verse before.

        Galatians 3:13

        Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”

        2. Sins are completely dealt with at the Cross, past present and future, because when Jesus died on the cross all our sins were future. He died 2,000 years ago. One sacrifice for sins forever. Hebrews 10:2.

        Romans 8:1-2
        Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,a 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

        John 8:36
        So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed!

        You are FREE FROM SIN, man, enjoy it!

        3. Old Testament is but the shadow of things to come.

        Hebrews 10:1
        The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming–not the realities themselves.
        Colossians 2:17
        These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

        4. Now our only emphasis is Lord Jesus.

        2 Corinthians 5:17

        Therefore, if anyone is IN CHRIST, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

        5. Teach the young Christians about our Lord Jesus and the New Covenant. We must TRUST the Holy Spirit of God to teach them what to do and not to do. He is a better teacher than we could ever be.

        Galatians 5;16

        So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

        Example: If a new Christian who is having a husband-wife relationship with her boyfriend came to my class and from the word go I tell her the law i.e. not to do so, she’ll not appear in my class ever again. This has been proven before.

        Example: If i tell my student not to wear short skirts my Saturday night, she’ll wear them on Friday nights.

        Example: GOD told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree, see what happened?

        But, if I keep on telling my students about her loving Saviour and how much He loves her, she is more than likely to come again and again.

        After listening about Himself (I’m a minister of the New Covenant), she’ll start to love Him, depend on Him and great obedience comes at the end with the leading of the Holy Spirit. This is COMMITMENT. Dead to sin and alive to God In Christ Jesus. Soul, spirit and body. Not on a superficial level. This might be a long and slow process, all in God’s timing.

        It’s just like if your parents arrange your marriage for you. To get your new wife to be committed to you, be faithful to you, to love you, you have to wine her and dine her, show her you love her and care for her instead of you ‘commanding’ her to do so.

        Galatians 5:1
        So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.

        Romans 10:4
        For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.

        This means the Old Testament is all ACCOMPLISHED in Lord Jesus Christ and now in us by faith and by the power of the Holy Spirit.

        If we have I-phone 5, we do not go on and on about how great I-phone 3 is. It’s obsolete, you know. It’s only good for telling us how much greater the future might be.

        Writing on this blog, you have the RESPONSIBILITY to minister the New Covenant so as to not put the people under ‘yoke of slavery again to law’.

        Galatians 3:10
        All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.

        Talk about Jesus lah, much much easier.

        Thank you, my Lord Jesus! 🙂

        • @ lyn

          I think u r most likely in the group of people mentioned by Jesus Christ at MATT.7:23 = “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.!”(sorry, no disrespect intended)

          QUOTE: [“1. Curses do not apply to New Covenant Christians. I have given the verse before. Galatians 3:13
          Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”
          2. Sins are completely dealt with at the Cross, past present and future, because when Jesus died on the cross all our sins were future. He died 2,000 years ago. One sacrifice for sins forever. Hebrews 10:2,Romans 8:1-2.] :UNQUOTE.

          I think u do not hv a full understanding about the gospel message.
          …….At ACTS.5:1-11, the early Christian couple, Ananias and Sapphira, were struck dead by God bc of sin/evil deed, ie they tried to cheat God(or lied to the HS) by hiding part of their possessions.

          There r 2 kinds of sins.
          1. Sinning in thought that arises from our evil hearts/flesh; this sin cannot be prevented.
          2. Sinning in deeds that come about when we fall into Satan’s temptations or fears; this sin can be prevented.
          ….B4 someone commits murder, adultery, stealing, lying or other sins/evil deeds, first he/she hated or got angry or jealous or greedy or lustful or other sinful/evil thoughts in his/her heart or flesh.

          Moses Law was given by God to prevent murder and other sins/evil deeds thru deterrence. JC was given by God as a sacrifice to atone for Mankind’s evil hearts/flesh that gave rise to hate and other sinful/evil thoughts. Adam’s original sin caused Mankind to be born with evil hearts/flesh.(ROM.5:12, MARK.7:21, JOHN.8:44)

          That is why, at MATT.5:17-48, JC told His fellow Jews that they could not be saved from hell by just keeping Moses Law, ie by avoiding evil deeds and doing good deeds. Moses Law could only prevent sins/evil deeds, eg murder, adultery, stealing, lying, etc.
          ….Moses Law did not do anything about their sinful/evil thoughts, eg hateful thoughts, jealous thoughts, angry thoughts, greedy thoughts, lustful thoughts, etc. Moses Law could stop murder but it could not stop their hateful thoughts.

          The whole of Mankind is wreaked by such disastrous sinful/evil thoughts, which is the real reason all of Mankind is bound for hell when they die.
          ….Only JC could do something about our sinful/evil hearts/flesh that we have been born into, as an inheritance from the Fall of Adam and Eve.
          ….The sacrifice of JC was to save Mankind from the curse of being sent to hell when they die. The sacrifice of JC does not save them from God’s curse/punishment when they intentionally commit sin/evil deeds or who do not repent from their unintentional sins.
          ….This follows from the blood sacrifice of clean animals as practiced in Moses Law which could only atone for unintentional sins/evil deeds(LEV.4:2). For Christians, the Holy Communion has replaced the Mosaic practice of animal sacrifice – similarly the blood of JC could only atone for unintentional sins/evil deeds and sinful/evil thoughts(from Adam’s original sin).

          If Christians, for whatever reasons(eg from false Radical Grace teachings), intentionally commit sins/evil deeds, they will have to suffer the consequences of God’s curse/punishment. Eg, if Christians murder, they will most probably be executed by the law enforcers; Christians are not exempted. ROM.13:1-7 says that govts are appointed by God for our own good.
          ….Whether such sinning Christians will still keep their faith and salvation while undergoing God’s curse(eg Dr. Richard Teo) is a matter of conjecture and only God knows. Job’s wife failed to keep the faith while undergoing God’s curse/punishment.
          ….It is foolish for Christians to take such a risk by intentionally committing sins/evil deeds. The teaching of Radical Grace may give some Christians a false impression that Moses Law that deters sins/evil deeds is obsolete, that a sin is not a sin and that God has forgiven all their unintentional and intentional sins from past, present and future(ie God won’t curse them for their intentional sins).

          The NT commands new Gentile Christians to start their spiritual life by obeying the 4 simple laws of Moses at ACTS.15:29, ie to abstain from things offered to idols, from (eatingblood, from (eating)things strangled and from sexual immorality.
          ….Thereafter, they should slowly learn to avoid other sins/evil deeds or repent of the former sins/evil deeds. It is a fact that Gentiles lead mostly lawless lives, like a wild beast.

          At REV.14:9, God has commanded His people to refuse the mark-of-the-beast(REV.13), or they will lose their salvation. Refusal of the mark will mean persecution and/or death by starvation. This event is coming soon.
          ….By the power of the Holy Spirit, please obey this law/commandment when the time comes. Hopefully, Jesus Christ will come back b4 death overtakes the believers.
          _ _ _ _ _ _ _

          1COR.5:1-12 = 1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife!
          4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
          5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

          10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
          11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
          12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?

          • AAAh.. Non-Pentecostal! Every judgement call from you feel like a stab to the heart..It’s ok, all sins forgiven.. 🙂

            N-P, I have never cut and paste Bible so much in my life before so, all I’m saying is from the Bible. Please give me credit for this.

            1) Ananias and Sapphira

            This is a story that should usher ABSOLUTELY everyone into the Grace zone.

            1Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

            3Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.”

            Hear, hear,

            Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that SATAN HAS SO FILLED YOUR HEART….”
            You have not LIED to men but to GOD.

            And again to Sapphira

            “How could you agree to TEST the SPIRIT of the LORD?”

            These sentences prove that Ananias and Sapphira were not saved!.

            Again, in the preceding Acts 4:32 this is what was said of BELIEVERS

            The Believers Share Their Possessions

            32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much GRACE was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
            36Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement), 37sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.

            -This proves that Ananias and Sapphira were not believers (not one in heart and mind) and were not filled with the Holy Spirit of God (filled with Satan, in fact) and not under Grace (which the believers were).

            Their judgement came from the Law because they were under Law.

            They were Old Covenant people stuck in a New Covenant story. Just like you N-P! Ahhh… 🙂

            Galatians 3:10
            All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law”.

            They made ‘giving’ a law for themselves yet were not willing observe it all the way. They gave half and drop dead. Poor things. 🙂

            2) N-P ah, all your arguments about sins are wrong lah. In the New Testament, when the word ‘SIN” and ‘CURSE” are mentioned, NOT ONCE does it SPECIFY like you say.

            If you’re right then the Bible would say it like this…

            Roman 6:6
            For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin (only unintended sins though) might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin (non-intentional sins-be careful!).

            Galatians 3:13
            Christ redeemed us from the curse (only unintentional sins ok?) the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”

            Not Once. Everything you put in yourself.

            Sins are sins lah. Intentional, unintentional. You’re going to spend your whole life thinking about your sins i.e Bondage to Sin.

            Looking at a woman is adultery, Hate is murder. How to keep?

            3) N-P, you have undertaken too much burden upon your small shoulders. Go look for Lord Jesus and give it all to Him.

            Matthew 11:30

            For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

            Poor thing.

            I’ll see you in heaven though 🙂

            lyn

            I will not write on this matter anymore. My intention was to free you but now I realise the more I write the more I propel you to write things which would drive your beliefs further into your own mind which tantamount to me doing evil its work.

            The Lord be with you.

          • NP, I am every bit against sins as you are or even more so but my method of achieving holiness in my people are different from yours. I usher them in through Grace. In my teachings I teach them that sexual sins are wrong but I get them deep into the word of God of why it is and into the realm of the Holy Spirit as their ultimate guidance.

  • Didnt God permit Satan to test Job ? Job 1 : 6-12. Many lessons from how Job responded to suffering ? But his question on why was not answered ?After he was restored in chap 42, he did respond as a man of grace to his “friends”.He held on — Job 19:25

  • I also find it interesting that Job ‘repented’. The Lord said this of Job “He is blameless and upright”.

    Again “in all this Job did not sin in what he said”

    Again to prove that he has not sinned at all the Lord was angry with his friends for saying what is not right, as ‘my servant Job has’.

    No sin, why repent?

    Repent in Greek-metanoia i.e change of mind.

    I submit to you it is because Job relied on himself all this time-his puny self effort.

    At the end, when he SAW the majesty of God and the Lord Himself spoke out of a mighty storm to magnify His own majesty, power and glory, Job realised what an idiot he was.

    If today the Lord appears to us and speak to us like that, we will also realise how pathetic we really are compared to Him and we’ll all submit to His power and glory and rely on His Grace for everything instead of relying on what we can do for Him.

    He repented because he realised He could have depended on all this power but he did not.

    And no matter how hard he worked, he still will repent at the end because the Lord’s standard is so high, he cannot achieve it (no one can).

    Romans 3:23-24
    For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus

    This is also evidenced in the later part of Job’s life, no more mention of sacrifice of burnt offerings from Job. Everything then works by prayer and given freely by the LORD OF GRACE.

    Also, there is only one burnt offering mentioned-7 bulls and 7 rams i.e. representing the perfect sacrifice…His Son.

    Amen

  • also oops, not amen yet..:)

    Of all the men of God in the Bible, nobody depended on their self effort more than Job. He is the most ‘kiasu’ in this regard. People did not sin yet, he already sacrifice burnt offerings. A typical Singaporeanlah, so to speak.. He is also the only one who repented when he did not sin.

    This is a story of man who depended so much on his self effort and then destroyed for doing so and brought to life again to depend wholly on the Lord his God lah. In other words, the journey from complete Law to complete Grace.

    Beautiful.

    Now, Amen.. 🙂

  • A beautiful book teaching so much on how one should react to suffering in the real world, raising impt questions and points like why the wicked prosper , our God is sovereign- he gives and takes away etc etc and yet being reduced and interpreted to focus on law and grace and obession on self effort .Poor apostle Paul and all the matyrs of christianity should be laughed at based on such interpretation of the gospel. Sad state.

  • One of the lessons of Job is that we should never assume the reason for one’s circumstances is one’s righteousness or sin ( God’s favor or wrath)like what Job’s “friends ” did.
    Jesus clarified in Luke 13 that we do not know whether tragedies have any relation to sin or not. Looks like Job still has “friends” in this day and age. Should read God’s conversation with Satan again in Chap 1. Warped interpretation again.

  • @penthocostal
    An anthropologic God means supports the view that man is created in His image – similarly God by extension has ” superhuman characteristics” – capable of jealousy, judgement, love etc – this enables a “Personal relationship” whilst an ethereal, omnipresence, multitasking, ultra natural, omnipotent entity makes Man insignificant within a meta Natural universe with predictable Laws eg gravity, speed of light, quantum etc – scientist believe the Law of Everything wud describe God howeverr this may the the unreachable holy grail. The unification of a physical and spiritual world wud do much towards a ” mechanistic understanding of our existence and physical world.

    bible quotes justifies but does little to explain reality as itnis perceived and experienced. Basically good guys suffering n perishing whilst bad guys are thriving and succeeding. Without a reasonable model to explain these apparent anomalies – seems to me like bad science and religious teachings are the same – dismal platitudes of extremely dubious value beyond a “placebo” balm for life.

    • @ Journeyman

      “Basically good guys suffering n perishing whilst bad guys are thriving and succeeding.”
      _ _ _ _ _ _ _

      1. God created Mankind with Free Will or Freedom of Choice.
      2. God sacked Satan/demons as His servants/workers, kicked them out from heaven and wanted to hire Mankind as their replacement.
      3. Adam’s original sin caused Mankind to be born with evil/sinful hearts or flesh.
      4. Mankind and Satan/demons are arch enemies.

      IMO,……. This world is ruled by Satan bc those who listen to Satan outnumber those who listen to God, eg when nearly the whole nation of Israel rejected God and His Laws and she got cursed/punished by God by being colonized by other powers. Satan rules this world by proxy, ie thru those who listen to him.
      ….Satan empowers the wicked to bring harm to the common folks. When the usefulness of the wicked ends, they too will be destroyed by Satan.
      ….Like in democratic elections, the evil majority become rulers and will tyrannize the helpless minority.

      Job lived in simpler times when Satan-influenced people were less numerous.

      Notwithstanding the Satan-ruled world, God has promised peace, love, joy, contentment and long life to those who keep His laws/Word and believe in Jesus Christ; but they are in the minority in this world. Satan cannot penetrate the shield of protection provided by God to His people, unless He permits.(1JOHN.5:18)

      Satan can only win against believers if he is able to steal their salvation. That was why most of the apostles were willing to die for their faith, ie they were executed bc they did not renounce their faith by worshiping the statue of the Roman Emperor.
      ….A time is coming when present-day believers will be required to similarly die for their faith. This will happen just b4 the 2nd Coming of JC.

      JC will be coming back to earth to destroy all the unbelievers and save all the believers. JC will also destroy this corrupted and polluted earth. In a twinkling of an eye, He will create a new earth, on which, He will live with His people for 1,000 years. Then the end of this age will come.
      ….1THESS.4:16, 1COR.15:24 & 52, REV.21:1.

      PROV.14:32 = The wicked is banished in his wickedness, but the righteous has a refuge in his death.

      PROV.24:16 = For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, but the wicked shall fall by calamity.(eg GENNEVA Gold)

      Also, PSA.37 & 73, JOB.21, JER.12

      • Onw consequence of yr thinking will be financiers n bankers of 2008 vintage – by proxy they will destroy the guys who relied upon their expertise n advise but they themselves will be destroyed when their “weapons of financial mass destruction” are no longer effective when greed n insecurity are bred out of the system?? Not sure this will ever happen as for the past 800 years we have had many repeats – book by Rheinhart and Rogoff – This Time is Different but of course it is not except politicians and bankers keep telling us so as not to be blamed for repeating a predictable economic boom bust economy. IMO maybe Christians are equally derelict in their worship – we keep repeating like Bankers.

        Just visited the war graves at Stalingrad(Volgagrad) and Leningard (St Petersburg) where 3 and 5 million lost their lives as invaders and defenders making clinically symmetrical burial hills and covering a couple of sq kilometers in SP. We can continue quoting the Bible but if we do not learn about having a blessed and abundant life, results will be predictable as for the past 5000 years – euphoria, boom, bust
        and miseries.

  • My Friends,

    Jacob Wrestles With God

    22That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
    But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
    27The man asked him, “What is your name?”
    “Jacob,” he answered.
    28Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.”
    29Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
    But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
    30So Jacob called the place Peniel,f saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
    31The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel,g and he was limping because of his hip. 32Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.

    ***********************************************************************************

    I say we are blessed in Christ and everyone will then say ‘where? I don’t see this blessing?’ The answer is in this story.

    This is the other place, where Lord Jesus came.

    In the Old Testament men cannot see God face to face and live.
    God here is yet again in the person of Lord Jesus.

    Jacob struggled with God from night till daybreak and did not let go until the Lord blesses him.
    Then the Lord said that he has struggled with God and men and have overcome.

    The Lord then changed his name from ‘Jacob’ meaning ‘to follow’ or ‘to be behind’ to become ‘Israel’ which is ‘He has been saved by God’.

    We are all Israel, whether natural or through adoption, we have been saved by God and blessed by God.

    At the end of the struggle, Jacob was limping because the man touched the socket of Jacob’s hip.
    In a way we are all limping. This is to bring us to a place where with every step we are reminded of Him.

    The Lord will not bless you all in one go, without any struggles and let you go scot-free with all your blessings. You’ll forget Him and take everything for granted and destroy yourselves.

    The answer is here. You struggle with Him until He blesses you, heal you, get back what you’ve lost etc. Please don’t let go, don’t give up. He will bless you but you’ll always walk with a limp to remind you the source of your blessings. You’ll overcome.

    All the promises of God is ‘yes’ and ‘amen’ in Christ.

    You’ll see your inheritance at the end. Know it, claim it and be sure to struggle with God for it. Don’t write it off too soon for the final chapter is not written yet..

    lyn

    • Hi lyn.

      Perhaps another way of looking at this is that Jacob’s striving to be blessed is actually an issue, rather than a noble thing. He strived with God and refused to let go until the Lord had to forcibly get him to stop by affecting his joint. It sounds like the Lord just wanted Jacob to stop struggling or striving in the first place, and perhaps to simply trust Him to do good.

      After all, wasn’t Jacob the inheritor of God’s covenant with Abraham and didn’t God just assure Jacob that He will always be with Jacob wherever he goes? (See Gen 28:15). Why strive to get blessings when you can relax knowing that God will keep His promises?

      Another perspective to think about I suppose.

      • Hi Ben,

        I’m very very glad you brought this up. This ‘wrestling’ should never be taken as another form of ‘works’.

        Ben, when I had the growth, I sat down for 3 days, praying, worshipping, crying and thanking until the Holy Spirit fall into me. Even this was God-led because I didn’t know what will happen in the future.

        On another occasion, my 4 year old daughter (Esther) turned against the Lord. I always corrected Esther saying Jesus said this and that. One day, she stuck her tongue out and said ‘Jesus, Jesus’..
        again and again. I felt sick to my stomach because I didn’t know how to deal with this. Having a daughter that dishonors the Lord was my biggest nightmare!

        I sat down again for 3 days and prayed. Third day she had a nosebleed that would not stop. My helpers were screaming at the amount of blood they saw on the tissues. I prayed “By Jesus’s stripes be healed, again and again” and holding the bridge of her nose but it didn’t stop.

        Out of the blue I heard this voice, so loud, so audible saying ‘ask her to pray’. That was the first time I heard God speaking. I stopped shocked and said to her ‘Esther, you pray’. She was crying then and in her sobs said “Lord Jesus, please heal me”. God is my witness, as soon as she said that, the bleeding stopped! And then I was back to praying by myself saying ‘Thank You Lord, thank you”. Again, I heard this voice ‘Ask her to thank me’. I automatically obeyed and said ‘Esther, you thank the Lord’. In her sobs she said ‘thank You Lord, thank you’. Ever since then she has been thanking the Lord. Now she is 9 and has been spreading the Gospel to her classmates since she was 6.

        So, the wrestling I was referring is this kind of prayers. Where you pray incessantly (can be everyday in your prayer time) until the Lord blesses you, heals you. Like when his friend prayed and fasted for Dr. Teoh.

        We already have the blessings of Abraham but we have to pray specifically for what we want and not let go. Also relevant are the parables in Luke 11:5-13 when asking for the Holy Spirit (and dealings) and Luke 18:1-8 The Parable of The Persistent Widow.

        It is also very interesting to me in the Jacob story that The Lord could wrench his hip but the Bible says that The Lord ‘could not overpower Him’!. The Lord had to ask for permission, in fact, “let me go, for it is daybreak”. This goes to show that He is not able to push us away when we come to Him with a request (according to Bible promises). Not that He didn’t want to. ‘HE COULD NOT OVERPOWER JACOB’.

        As long as we don’t let go, He could not overpower us and let us go without answering our prayers. This means the ball is in our court! That’s how good God is Ben. Also, the Bible said ‘Jacob had struggled with God and with men and have overcome’ implying the overcoming comes after the struggle.

        Thank you, Lord Jesus..

  • NP, while i may not agree entirely with some of your views, I do not find them warped like some of the others. It is scary and that’s why i sometimes write. Any human effort to do God’s work and obey the Lord is deemed self righteouness.Narrow is the door. The myopic and warped view is troubling as some may eventually be deceived. That’s why i said Paul’s efforts and the martyrs of the christian faith ( Revelation) will be laughed at based on this warped and myopic view. We all know we are saved by grace but that does not lead to the warped views.

    • First of all, I think discussing Scripture and spiritual growth is important, after all these are issues pertaining to life and death.

      But just like you find the views of others warped, others might also find your views warped or at least not the “full balanced gospel” as you say.

      You and I and NP and everyone else can quote Scripture left and right to support our views, but evidently we all have different interpretations. I can read a verse you or NP quoted and come to entirely different conclusions, and then it becomes tedious trying to elaborate further. The point is who is correct then?

      So if there are as many interpretations of Scripture as there are verses, is there actually a proper interpretation of Scripture? I believe so since God is not the author of confusion. If so, how to find out?

      Personally, I think if we truly endeavor to learn rather then just rejecting contrary views offhand then it’s important to to ask in all honesty:

      1. Does whatever we interpret out of the text glorify Jesus Christ or man?
      2. Who gets the glory when man’s efforts result in good?
      3. Who gets the glory when God’s efforts result in good?

      This is a simple test to apply since we already know that whenever something glorifies man rather than Jesus Christ, we know it’s not from God.

      • Seems to me that opinions express in this are like the findings of the six blind men describing an elephant. Each honest opinion seems valid to describe partially the situations but is nor holistic. My own sense is to take each and subject to a standard model tests and if they are more that 3sigma from mean, then reject them as an outlier that my standard model is unable to accommodate. My belief in an omnipotent God seems at odds with some of the perspectives expressed but most have contributed an enrichment to my own journey – many thanks to all. So far my takeaway –

        1. love the prosperity and daddy God guys – seems to great away to embrace the placebo effect and have an abundant life and not be hung up on no answers. They seem to want to banish illnesses, death and misfortune, yet it seems to me nobody is excluded – the blessing to me is the ability to synthesize the experience and be enriched by it – in modern management this is feedback and refinement. Hopefully version 1.1 is better than original and version2 will be a quantum leap form original.

        2. Bible justifiers – IMO are too judgmental and tend to condemn outliers eg those with sex orientation identity issues, various addictions or those going thru terminal processes. Most concerned when these
        people seem like narrow minded xenophobes and behave like an exclusive cult, full of rituals and fervent worship combined with a low threshold of tolerance for differences, seems like free choice those not exist
        and this grates against a standard model of a patient and loving God.

        Hopefully my own “warped” findings will help u all to similarly enrich each of your journey and gain abundant life we have each been promised.

        shalom and blessings to all- Huat Ah

        • Hi Journeyman.

          I can understand what you are thinking because I thought the same. I’ve also tried (and sometimes still trying) to account for all the worldly variables and data that don’t seem to square with the “God-is-good” Christian model or belief system. Like I’m trying to construct a set of rules for a new belief model that can adequately explain all these things I’m seeing, much like physicists try to do for natural phenomena.

          But in the end we have to acknowledge that there are just some things we will never know on this earth simply because we’re only human. You have to admit that even accounting for all the variables in a natural world is so complex and beyond human understanding, so how much more the spiritual world? So which will we put our trust in finally? Our own physical senses and very limited understanding of reality? Or what God says is reality as stated in the bible?

          Even if you think that those who trust in God’s goodness are merely believing in a placebo, at least don’t simply discount all the first-hand data that you’ve heard. That is just bias. Lyn has testified to her healing. I’m sure Blogpastor has had experiences too. Even though my own experience may not seem as dramatic, I’ve said it myself that God has personally intervened in my life. And as far as I’m aware, no amount of positive thinking can cure tumors or protect from fatal accidents or cancel debts or restore failed relationships. What do you make of it? Were we lying or deluded or just trying to exaggerate facts for whatever reason? Or are all these things just mysterious coincidences to you?

          • Lots of advances are happening in molecular neurobiology using functional MRI and PET imaging. Charlie Rose has done 2 great round table series on the human brain – currently science is trying to locate the soul – is it part of the conscious mind?

            Memories are as real as it gets for humans – a construct of ones past experiences that will colour ones future. Placebo appears to be the operating contemporary filter that defines one mental and holistic state. It is real and a powerful. Memories can be organized and ones state if mind happiness can influence ones health greatly.

            Seems to me that if ones is not be unduly influenced by mysticism like the shamans and rituals then one has a higher level of consciousness allow us to know God in deeper spiritual level. In this quest, hope to avoid consequences of superstitions and mysticism like burnt offerings, water cleansing.

            Like asking if the holy waters of Lourdes healing – lthe answer is depends on your belief! The Russian Orthodoxy believe there is a miracle spring at Suzdail and there is a large cathedral compound around – it is the holiest place for them.

          • @Journeyman,

            So all the miracles in the Bible, are those to be believed too?

            How about Jesus died on the cross to forgive the world it’s sins?

            Are we just being unduly influenced?

            Please tread carefully -this is a walk between life and death…

  • Some great quotes from Dietrich Bonhoeffer which are worth thinking about:

    —-” The real trouble is that the pure word of Jesus has been overlaid with so much human ballast- burdensome rules & regulations, false hopes and consolations — that it has become difficult to make a genuine decision for Christ ”

    — ” It is only when one knows the the ineffability of the name of God that one can utter the name of Jesus Christ. It is only when one loves life and the earth so much that without them everything would be gone, that one can believe in the resuurection and a new world. It is only when one submits to the law that one can speak of grace and only when one sees the anger and wrath of God hanging like grim realities over the head of one’s enemies that one can know something of what it means to love them and forgive them.”

    —- Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without repentance, baptism without church discipline, communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ- living and incarnate.”

    When we deal with someone for eg with sexual immorality issues, we need to show him what the scriptures talk about the consequences eg in Proverbs etc, we need to tell him that the scriptures teach him to Flee and of course we pray for the HS power to deliver him form the bondage when he puts in his level best to stop. It is 100% man and 100% God. Dont have to fear about the 100% man part.Soft messages are easy to preach ( there is nothing wrong with the love, mercy, grace, blessings etc) but ahrd truths must be given. Who wants to preach on the puplit 1 Cor5. Shoudnt one be worried that there maybe newcomers and they will be shocked etc etc. Leave that to the Lord. We must stand firm and tell the world we hate the sins but love the sinner. That’s what Jesus did. Jesus doesnt hold back on the truth. The truth will set us free but half truths can lead to deception. John Bevere wrote a great book using allegories to bring out hard truths and warnings.

    Franky if I am a new believer or worse prebeliever esp a skeptic, atheist or agnostic and if i read the amount of “disunity” among believers, it is very diffciult for me to embrace Christianity. The Church of Jesus Christ is so divided that it is sometimes embarassing when a prebeliever or new christiam ask us. Unity is important even though we may not agree on every theological issue ( many of what has been discussed are not really those issues) , God understands the power of unity ( Tower of babel). Hopefully in Singapore one can eventually say there is only one Church of Jesus Christ with many congregations ( different churches). Love Singapore has succeeded in some ways but much more is still left to be done. Apologies, this is a bit long but difficult to hold back after reading some of the comments. We all need to check on ourselves daily and take up the cross daily. We are very blessed in Spore and thank God but there is alot of persecution around the world.Cheers.

    • You said: “It is 100% man and 100% God. Don’t have to fear about the 100% man part”.

      It makes good soundbites but I’m afraid that there is no such thing as attributing an outcome to 100% from man and 100% from God, just like there is no such thing as “giving your 101%”. It’s a logical fallacy. How I know? Maths! When you attribute an outcome to some causes, you assign the percentages out of 100%, not 200%. So let’s not get confused by soundbites versus the facts, especially when discussing spiritual truths.

      So when you say 100% from man and 100% from God, you truly mean 50% from man and 50% from God. In other words, we both need to play our part, correct? But let’s also be brutally frank: If we play a part in a good outcome however small, why glorify only God when it was also partly due to our own efforts? We should also rightfully share in some of the glory according to the effort we put in. Think about this.

      From personal experience, I’ve said before that I exchanged a lot of my bad for His good. Of course I am still very much a work-in-progress, but suffice to say that a lot of the changes that has been made to my life, I am proud to say that I had a 0% part to play. I put in no effort to bring about those changes, simply because I couldn’t. It was all just God, and therefore rightfully all the glory must go to Him. So if we must put in our best effort, how come God can work in my life when I did not even lift a finger?

      It seems like the more we cannot do, the more He can. When we are a zero, then God can be our all. Non of self, all of Christ. Isn’t this the essence of the amazing grace of our God?

      Do you now understand why Paul can say that he’d most gladly boast about his weaknesses rather than his strengths, that Christ’s power may rest in him? Or how he can take delight in weaknesses and insults and persecutions and not look like a crazy masochist? Or how when he is weak then he is strong, which sounds contradictory?

      May Christ Jesus give you great understanding. After all, He is also your wisdom.

  • Balanced,

    ‘Any human effort to do God’s work and obey the Lord is deemed self righteousness’

    Human effort is ok, Balanced, but it can only take you so far.

    Human effort would produce an inconsistent result.

    Sometimes can, sometimes cannot. Unbalanced. Unstable.

    Example: You can stay with your wife because she is your wife, legalism, but what about loving her?

    Example: You can hold in your anger for one week. How about later?

    Example: A person under the sin of lust cannot possibly stop this lust when it overtakes them.

    Example: You can serve the Lord a little way using will power, but once the going gets tough, you’ll pack and leave. I had a friend who went to China in the poorest parts, worked there ministering for a little while and then suffered from being poor and left home for the States, went into business and now a successful businessman.

    Example: You can serve the Lord a Little Way in YOUR church but with the Power of The Lord Himself, you can serve 10 churches and still stand. (NCC is best example, not 10 churches but all over the world, that’s not man’s power at work so that is why I hardly mention the pastor’s name unless necessary. The ones who keeps mentioning the pastor’s name are the ones who does not understand the Power of God and the Glory of His Grace. It is all JESUS, my friends. The Lord is using us to spread His Grace around).

    When you do things in your own power, the credit is yours. When another brother falls and your eyes see that, you judge him because you think to yourself ‘there’s a man that cannot hold his family together like I can’. Self Righteousness.

    When you live under Grace, you ‘acknowledge’ that we are saved by God’s Grace. We are all FAILURES in one way or another and therefore no one is better than the other. We don’t judge others.

    If you serve God with your own power, you become proud (consciously or subconsciously). ‘oh, I put SGD500 in the bag today. I bet the one next to me would never put in that much, I’m sure, I’m better off’. Self Righteousness.

    When you you give to God under Grace you say “Lord all these is from You although I don’t deserve it, I give you back some, thank you my Lord”

    When you’re under Grace, you acknowledge God’s goodness and give all the Glory to God. Which pleases God very very much. (give so that people may give Glory to God).

    When you’re under Grace, you acknowledge every good work comes from Him.

    Suggestion: THIS is the HIGHER way. Pray this.

    Lord, I acknowledge I’m a sinner and without You, I am nothing and can do nothing. Lord, you lead and guide me into all things and if you’d like me to serve you, put Your strength and Your power into me, for I am weak. I know Lord, If anything comes from You, I’ll have success like my eyes have never seen before. I put all things into Your Loving hands, into Your Grace, my marriage, my kids, my work, my ministry, my life and may your abundant Grace flow into all these areas and may I see the Supernatural result that I have never seen before. Make every area of my life come alive before my eyes, not that I deserve it but by your wonderful Grace, unearned, undeserved Favour that You have endured so much to give me. I accept all your sacrifices in all areas of my life, Lord Jesus, thank you so much for Your Great Love for me.
    Holy Spirit of God, come dwell in me and give me the fruits which you so promise in the Bible because without it I am wretched. Come teach me your ways. I invite You to make my insides and every area of my life to come alive for Your Glory. For without you I am nothing and can do nothing. Give me Your wisdom, Your understanding, Your knowledge, Your power and Your counsel so that I may live Powerful and Full of Glory according to Your will and to know the purpose for which You have called me.
    Holy Spirit of God give me Your wisdom and revelation to know You better.
    Pour out you precious Grace, Lord, into every area of my life so I live each day in your Favour.
    Thank you Lord Jesus for all you have done on the Cross. May I not be proud enough to think that I am any good without you. Thank you my Precious Lord and Saviour.

    In Jesus’s precious Name I pray. Amen.

    Lyn

    We praise you, Lord!

  • I think many Christians misinterpret the teaching of Jesus Christ at MATT.5:17-48. At that time, (even today)the Jews believed that they were going to heaven by keeping/obeying Moses Law, ie by avoiding sins/evil deeds and doing good deeds.
    …….JC told His fellow Jews that they were mistaken, ie they could not inherit heaven by just keeping Moses Law = thru self-effort. He stated that if they so much as looked at a woman and lusted for her in their hearts, they were already bound for hell when they die, even though they had yet to commit adultery or fornication or rape. This applied to lustful Jewish women as well.
    ….Same scenario if they got angry or hateful or greedy or jealous or covetous in their hearts, even though they had yet to commit murder, robbery, lying or other evil deeds/sins.

    JC told them that if they still wanted to go to heaven by relying on their own self-efforts, they would hv to pluck out their eyes(can’t look=won’t adulterate/fornicate/rape) and chop off their limbs(can’t strike at others=won’t murder/rob). In essence, to inherit heaven thru self-effort required the complete absence of lust, hate, anger, greed, jealousy, covetousness or other sinful/evil thoughts in their hearts/flesh.
    ….So, JC then told them that they could not retaliate against others, eg when evildoers strike their cheek. Retaliation would hv meant that they had harbored anger and hate in their hearts. Instead, they must always force themselves to turn the other cheek, in order to inherit heaven. Similarly, they must lent away all their possessions to evildoers, in order to inherit heaven. Refusal would hv meant that they had harbored selfishness in their hearts, disqualifying them from heaven. And they had to love their enemies in their hearts. Having any hateful thoughts for their enemies in their hearts would hv disqualifed them from heaven.

    I think JC was telling them to do the impossible, in order to inherit heaven

    Later, JC told the Jews that they could inherit heaven by just believing in Him, ie JC would die for them to atone for their evil hearts/flesh which had given rise to their evil thoughts of lust, hate, anger, greed, jealousy, selfishness, covetousness, etc. The Jews did not hv rely on their self-effort, like plucking out their eyes or chopping off their limbs or turning the other cheek or giving away all their possessions or loving their enemies, in order to inherit heaven.

    The other self-effort of obeying Moses Law definitely could not enable the Jews to inherit heaven bc Moses Law could only prevent them from committing sins/evil deeds; it could not prevent evil/sinful thoughts from arising in their hearts/flesh. The obeying of Moses Law could only bring them earthly blessings from God(DEUT.28:1-2); it could not bring them heavenly blessings from God.

    When Christians misinterpret MATT.5:17-48, they will foolishly allow evildoers to walk over them or bully them or take advantage of their foolishness. It would be OK if souls were saved by their “sacrifice”. I doubt it bc most evildoers/sinners are unrepentant. Being sinned against or bullied or taken advantage of is not religious persecution.
    ….Reporting to the police when Christians hv been robbed, raped or assaulted will result in the evildoer suffering incarceration, ie the Christians would be repaying an evil with evil. It is foolish for such Christians to not make police reports against secular crimes.

    At ROM.12:14-21, Paul was commanding believers to not retaliate when they were persecuted for their faith in JC. He told them to bless their persecutors(mostly the Jewish religious authorities), in order to induce God to avenge on their behalf. Non-retaliation and blessing their persecutors were to “heap coals of fire on their persecutors’ heads”.
    ….Non-retaliation and blessing their persecutors were not to convert the persecutors or to love their persecutors till they convert. It was to bring God’s curse/punishments upon their persecutors.
    ….This came true when all the stubborn Jews who persecuted JC and His apostles/disciples were massacred by the Romans during the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD.(source: Eusebius of Caesarea and Josephus Flavius – ancient historians)

    Similarly, a time is coming soon when believers will be persecuted for their faith bc they refuse to receive the mark-of-the-beast.(REV.13 & 14) This mark will most likely be computer chip implants. Believers hv been commanded by God to not retaliate but to bless their persecutors(=govts, police and non-believers), and some of them will hv to die for their faith in JC. In due time, JC will return to exact vengeance on their unrepentant persecutors.
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    If the self-effort of obeying Moses Law could not save people from going to hell when they die, then how did the OT figures like Job, Abraham, beggar Lazarus(LUKE.16:19-31), Moses and Elijah(MATT.17:3) who either believed in God or obeyed Moses Law, went to heaven.?
    ….MATT.27:51-53 and 1PET.3:9 & 4:6 say that after His resurrection, JC opened the gates of hell, released them from their eternal prison and preached the gospel of salvation to them. They believed in JC and so went to heaven.
    ….It should be noted that the unnamed rich man of LUKE.16 went to hell bc he intentionally and unrepentantly broke Moses Law at DEUT.15:1-11. Pre-JC, those Jews who broke Moses Law all went to hell.
    ….It should also be noted that after the resurrection of JC, the post-JC Jews who obeyed Moses Law could no longer inherit heaven by having JC preach to them after they hv died and gone to hell, like what happened for Job and Moses. Today, the keeping of Moses Law by the Jews will not avail them of heaven.
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    I think in this world, there r 2 ways of obeying Moses Law or the moral laws/Word of God. The Jewish way(self-effort) and the Christian way(yoked by Jesus).
    1. The Jews obeyed Moses Law by fearing God, His curse/punishments and the law-enforcers.(DEUT.4:10, PROV.1:7) Law-abiding atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, etc also follow this way, ie they fear their god or the police.
    2. The born-again Gentile Christians obey the moral laws/Word of God by relying on the power of the Holy Spirit who pours out the love for God and the love for their neighbors/friends into their hearts.(HEB.8:10, ACTS.2:17)
    ….It’s like the 2 faces of the same coin. Both ways accomplish the same thing, ie avoiding evil deeds/sins and doing good deeds, resulting in earthly blessings from God, eg long and contented earthly life.
    ….But the Christian way of obeying the laws/Word of God has the added benefit of the HS resurrecting them after they die and bringing them to heaven bc they believed in JC for their salvation.

    This does not mean that Christians will be “forced” by the HS/God/JC to obey the moral laws/Word of God bc God has given humans Free will or the Freedom of Choice. It is possible for Christians to grieve the HS, to reject the HS, to walk according to their flesh and to be deceived by Satan’s spirit.(MATT.6:24)
    ….Similarly, God did not “force” the Jews to obey Moses Law.(DEUT.30:19) When they chose to obey God and His laws, God blessed them with a land of milk and honey, ie the kingdom of Israel. Later, when they chose to reject God and His prophets, they suffered for it, ie when the kingdom of Israel was colonized by foreign powers.

    • Yes. I agree with most of what you’ve said here.

      Especially this: “I think in this world, there r 2 ways of obeying Moses Law or the moral laws/Word of God. The Jewish way(self-effort) and the Christian way(yoked by Jesus).”

      This is essentially what I meant when I was trying to explain the difference between self-effort and God-given results. One has it’s source in the flesh, the other has it’s source in the Holy Spirit. Of course all believers want to live a holy life and obey His commandments, but how to accomplish that is where a lot of us differ, and I’m glad you agree that being yoked with Jesus and being dependent on Him is the better way.

      Regarding your question on how did Abraham qualify for heaven: It is said that Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness in Romans 4:3. Maybe the other OT patriarchs qualified in the same way. Don’t forget also that the animal sacrifices in the OT were a type of the real sacrifice in Christ, and maybe that as they believed and practiced this (like Job) their sins were also covered.

  • I have already written earlier about the fallacies of your arguments and conclusions.Dont make hasty generalizations and conclusion when something is only a necessary conditions and not a sufficient condition. Everything is human effort unless its a robots. Walking on water is also requires human effort ie walk. Its 100% man and 100% God. Anyway like NP, this will be my last. I and many many of my friends put in our utmost human effort and together with the pose of the HS our bondages are broken. This is also accompanied by the fear of the Lord , understanding the consequences and the hard truths. Soft messages don’t work for me and my friends but the hard truths of the scriptures include everything, fear of the Lord, warnings of the Lord, love, grace, mercy power etc. How did Jesus preach to the rich ? Hard truths lest one be deceived. Did Paul who worked for the Lord very very hard attribute glory to himself or to the Lord ? That’s why I said many of the interpretations are warped. While there are difficult passages many don’t need interpretation, they are straight forward eg God detest divorces, flee from sexual immorality, God hates lukewarmness etc. Otherwise an uneducated or lowly educated person cant be a christian. Its better to practise and live out one truth then know fifty truths and practise none. Soft messages are appealing but we need to present the full.gospel. Narrow is the gate despite the love, grace and mercy of the Lord. Cheers and many thanks for the sharings.

    • Matthew 11:29-30(NKJV) = “29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
      _ _ _ _ _ _ _

      @ Balance …….I think u r quite right, based on the Word of God, ie doing the will/work of God requires 100% man and 100% God.

      In the above Scripture, JC gave a very good analogy about the Spirit-filled life of a disciple as being like a yoked buffalo being guided by a bullock-cart driver(=JC) via a rope(=Holy Spirit/Word of God). It is similar to a horse-drawn carriage with wheels.

      First, only a tame buffalo will be willing to be yoked. Wild buffaloes and wild horses r not willing to be yoked or ridden.(tamed by God’s laws/Word=law-abiding)
      ….Second, after being successfully tamed and trained, as needed, the driver will hook up the yoke upon the buffalo and attached it to the bullock-cart. He may use the bullock-cart for various purposes, eg to do work, shopping, visit his relatives, etc. Having accomplished his needs(=the will of God), he will unyoke the faithful buffalo and let it rest. The buffalo is not yoked 24/7 by the driver.(JOHN.3:7-8)
      ….Eg, at ACTS.2, filled with the HS, Peter was full of boldness. At GAL.2:11-14 however, Peter was like a mouse.

      Notice that, in order to accomplish the needed work or purposes, both the driver and the buffalo had put in their efforts. The driver did not do the work/purposes all alone. The buffalo, also, could not do it all alone. Mutual efforts were exerted by both=100% man and 100% God, with God being the leader of the man. JC and His yoked disciples walk according to the Spirit and do the works/will of the Spirit/God=fruits of the Spirit.

      Besides JC and His yoked disciples, there r also Satan and his yoked disciples and unyoked wild non-disciples. Satan and his yoked disciples walk according to demonic spirits and do the works of Satan. Unyoked wild non-disciples walk according to their evil flesh/hearts and do the works of their flesh(GAL.5:16-23).

      Satan does not just hv yoked disciples; he also hv disciples whom he fully possessed(MATT.8:28, MARK.5:9) and others whom he regularly torments. Such disciples hv served his purpose and hv no more use for him, eg those who dabble in the occult/black magic.

      Peace.

    • What hasty generalization and conclusion? I was talking about MYSELF before and after Grace. Nobody can walk on water. If you can walk on water it’s 100% God.

      Most of the hard truths Jesus preached is to bring you to the end of yourself. Unless your righteousness can surpass those of the Pharisees and teachers of the law, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven..what’s that? Paul never attributed anything to himself. It’s always to the power of the Holy Spirit and Jesus. He is the one who taught us about power of the Holy Spirit.

      If Boeing is already flying their jets to cross the Atlantic, please don’t keep on taking the ship.
      Now, that’s warped..

      • @lyn
        Quote…..”In healing you cannot afford to peak over the fence. It’s just like Peter walking on water, there is no room for you to look at the wind. There is no room for you to look at sister so and so or brother so and so and Journeyman’s opinion about it ☺. It’s a time for tunnel vision. Me and Jesus on the water. Walk. Period.” – since walking on water has never been repeated, logical and rational to assume that it will be impossible to Visualize or imagine what Peter felt – this wud be as useless as another recent religious fad or WWJD or WWJT or all variants in between – we will never be Jesus and the best we can hope for is get a glimpse of the mind of God but with the risk u cud be institutioned after the event at IMH.

        Can we now assume after RT n KG testimonies, that even the great people of God do develop cancer and DIE as part of a God’s plan??

  • No need for deeper interpretation? Really? Even the “lukewarmness” you quoted from Revelations in the same sentence, I am almost sure we’ve got different takes on what “lukewarmness” really means. And let’s not even suggest that only the educated can become Christian – that’s saying that Jesus cannot save the uneducated. I have no idea why you would even think that.

    But if you’re contented with where you stand then okay. Let’s just agree to disagree.

  • Coming back to the story of Job, I think Job committed an unintentional sin, which he was not aware of.

    Job lived b4 Moses Law was given by God. So, Job was not aware that his son’s sins would not hv caused him to lose all his hard-earned prosperity.

    1. Job was a blameless and upright man, one who feared God and shunned evil(deeds). So, God blessed him with much prosperity.(DEUT.28:1-2)
    2. Job began to worry/fear that his sons might commit sins/evil deeds and cause him to lose everything(JOB.3:25).
    3. So, Job made presumptuous burnt offerings to God to atone for his sons’ future sins, just in case his sons might sin, in order to insure his prosperity. By doing so, Job committed an unintentional sin due to his ignorance. If Job knew that God would not curse/punish him for his sons’ sins, he would not hv made such an offering.
    4. For his unintentional sin, God cursed/punished him by allowing Satan to make his fears into reality, ie killed his sons/daughters, took away all his prosperity and inflicted Job with diseases.
    5. Job was stunned and perplexed by what had happened to him. He asked himself, why.?
    6. Job’s friends told him that he must hv intentionally sinned, to hv such calamities from God befell him.
    7. Job rejected their accusations and demanded an answer from God.
    8. God told Job that he could not make such a demand from Him, the Almighty Creator.
    ….On hindsight, we know that Moses Law revealed that Job committed an unintentional sin, out of ignorance. God’s will was to give His laws to Moses, and not to Job; hence God did not give Job a straight-forward answer, ie he committed an unintentional sin by making a presumptuous burnt offering.
    9. Job repented for having made such a demand from God.(JOB.42:6)
    10. I think Job knew there was some unintentional wrong on his part but he did not know what it was. Hence, he asked God for an explanation.
    ….It’s like a person suddenly getting arrested by a police officer, not knowing why.
    11. So, Job and his 3 friends repented and offered burnt offering to God to atone for their unintentional sins.(JOB.42:8)
    12. Having forgiven Job, God restored Job’s losses and gave him twice as much as b4.
    13. In time, he begot another 7 sons. This time Job did not make presumptuous burnt offering, just in case his sons might sin, in order to insure his prosperity. This time, Job must hv got a revelation about his unintentional sin, done out of ignorance.
    14. He learned his mistake from experience or “practice makes perfect”. Thereafter, Job lived prosperously to a ripe old age.
    15. It’s like God gave Job a 2nd chance for his unintentional sin.

    The story of Job teaches us that unintentional sin, done out of ignorance, if not acknowledged and repented of, will bring earthly curses/punishments from God upon us.
    ….Unintentional sins need to be repented of and forgiven/atoned by the blood of Jesus Christ(during Holy Communion). God will then restore us to wholesomeness.

    Being justified by faith in JC for salvation is another matter bc salvation is a heavenly blessing from God, which applies on death or when leaving this earth. In salvation, death will later be followed by resurrection and ascension to heaven. For some lucky ones, they may not taste death; they will be raptured alive, to meet JC in the clouds. It is quite possible that the apostle John did not die and has remained alive on this earth for 2,000+ years(JOHN.21:22)
    ….The self-effort of keeping Moses Law or the shunning of evil deeds/sins and the doing of good deeds, does not justify for salvation. Salvation can only come from the effort of JC. Believers just claim His effort done for them and receive the free gift of salvation by believing in Him.
    ….Faith in JC results in a believer being born-again of the Holy Spirit. Then ACTS.2:17 and HEB.8:10 follows, and so on.

    Intentional or willful sin/evil deed is a *grave* matter. Such a sin is committed by believers with full awareness and knowledge of the laws/Word of God or Moses Law. Such a sin/evil deed cannot be atoned/forgiven by the blood of JC. Depending on the level of harm caused by the intentional sin, the vengeance of the curse/punishment from God will be measure for measure and will be a one-way street(terminal), ie there is no possibility of restoration ala Job. Eg murder=death by execution, stealing=imprisonment, traffic violation=fines. For intentional sins, we reap what we sow or karma.

    Hence, at HEB.26-31, Paul warned believers that for willful/intentional sins or evil deeds, “there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a certain fearful expectation of judgment”. And at 1JOHN.5:16, John warned believers that those who commit sins leading to death could not be prayed/interceded for by others.

    1COR.6:9-11 and REV.22:14-15 say that unrepentant sinners who commit willful/intentional sins or evil deeds will not inherit heaven. These are those who hv suffered the curse of God for their intentional sins and yet did not repent. Instead, they continued in their intentional sins. They may think that salvation has been guaranteed to them by their faith in JC, no matter all the intentional evil/sins that they had done and continued to hv done.
    ….If u were God, would u accept such an unrepentant sinner/evildoer who calls himself/herself a believer, into yr home/heaven.?(1JOHN.3:4-10)

    Eg, God causes men to become gay bc they intentionally rejected God even though they were fully aware that He exists. It’s according to the law of ni4ni. They knew God exists but they intentionally rejected Him bc of self-will(to lead their own lives). So, God knew that they lusted for women but He intentionally rejected them as men and made them lust for men.(ROM.1:26-27)
    ….Only repentance of their intentional sin against God, can gays be forgiven and be restored by God as normal heterosexual men. This can only come from knowing the Word of God.
    ….God has given new GC a lifetime to transform their former lawless lives and to remove their ignorance. It is foolish to take God for granted.
    ….Unrepentance will cause the gays to remain as gays and I think they will die unsaved, even though they may claim to be believers.

    Yet, a Church has gay bishops and pastors.

    Conversion is just the beginning of a process of spiritual growth. It is a fallacy to believe that salvation for a convert is guaranteed the moment he/she converted, esp for a formerly lawless Gentile convert. If not, why did JC gave the parable of the sower/farmer at MATT.13:18-23, where converts were likened to “the wayside”, “stony places”, “thorny/weedy places” or “good ground”.?
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    How does the story of Job apply today.?

    B4 Gentiles converted to Christianity, most of them, esp the adults, had led lawless lives, like wild animals.
    ….I think God would consider ALL the sins/evil deeds committed by new Gentile Christians(GC) b4 they converted, as unintentional sins, done out of ignorance. On conversion, all their sins, even intentional ones, can be atoned for/forgiven by the blood of JC(COL.2:13). Eg b4 his conversion, Paul had “murdered” many believers. Yet, God did not immediately execute him or curse/punish him, for those “murders” when he converted.

    After new GC converted, it would be a tall order for the Holy Spirit/God’s Spirit to transform a new GC to be like a law-abiding Jewish Christian, overnight. The HS cannot undo years of evil/lawless habits and cultural practices of these new GC overnight. It takes time.
    ….New GC are born-again of the Spirit as spiritual babies; they need to be fed with spiritual milk first. After some time of spiritual growth, can they be fed with solid spiritual food.(MATT.4:4) The HS acts in accord with the Word of God.

    Immediately, requiring new GC to keep Moses Law would over-burden them with drastic changes to their lives. Such an unreasonable requirement may cause some of them to abandon their new-found, but fragile faith.
    ….Since heavenly blessing/salvation is more important than earthly blessings from God(or earthly curses from God), God gave the new GC nearly full exemption from Moses Law.

    Hence, at ACTS.15:29, new GC were only required to begin their new spiritual life by obeying the 4 simple laws of Moses. So, a small part of Moses Law was still imposed on them.
    ….The new GC are to use this seed of the Law implanted in them and their liberty from most of the Law, to slowly grow spiritually. The aim is to transform their former lawless lives into law-abiding lives. They should do this by feeding on the laws/Word of God. They should be guided by the basic principle of the law, as taught by JC at MATT.22:37-40, ie love God and love yr neighbor/friend as yrself.

    The finer details about righteous living need to be learnt from Moses Law, the OT and the NT, as new GC are quite clueless about the OT. Eg the story of Job confounds most of them.
    ….Only with the full knowledge or awareness of the Holy Scriptures or the Word of God, will the HS be able to fully empower a believer be live righteously. Only then, can a believer confidently say that “it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me”(GAL.2:20), bc JC=the Word.(JOHN.1:1)

    • Frankly speaking,do u love sin ??Any born again christian reading this blog doesnt love sin ??The truth is that we all love sin because we are still human.

      • I think we r always tempted – not sure we are successful all the time but respite form each yields a freedom from fear and insecurity. A troubled mind makes for hellish existence.

    • @NP
      Homophobia does not seem to be particularly Christian or neighborly to me – if JC cud promise his fellow crucifixians (who were the scum of society) a place in His Father’s house by his side, who dares say otherwise. There is no scale of intensity when considering sin – drug,sex, gambling addiction, greed, stealing etc are all equally abominable to my God, not sure about yours.

      If the fruit of our beliefs is not sweet and pleasing then is there any value in being able to knowing the Bible?

  • @NP

    Have issues with the “Baptist” opinions abt Job –

    1. If God allowed Satan to attack his “best” worshipper – this begs the question why? Vanity on God’s part to be proven superior in a competition w Satan? Inability of God to hv dominion over Satan.

    2. What is an unintentioned Sin? seems to me,making burnt offerings has to be a willful act ecause u hv to start a cire to incinerate an animal carcass. More logical if it cud be an act of ignorance (inappropriate) but this wud make yr God model extremely petty.

    3. There is no prototypical sex eg Male or Female type – there are variance in genetic, anatomical, hormonal and susceptibility to environmental chemical eg phthalate plasticizers – there are persistent estrogen analogues and know to cause “feminization” of fish and aquatic mammals – likely in humans but not conclusively proven like cigarettes and cancer. To condemn people on behalf of a ill conceived God model is amoral and not xtian IMHO. Perhaps next we will condemn people who like bacon as pork is considered unclean and yet I know of many such diabetics who used porcine derived insulin to continue living – is this a useless belief? Wud u leave yr church or spouse or family if u found out they were closet gays – where is the grace or humanity in that situation?

    4. Methinks a fundamentalist Xtian approach and a verbatim acceptance of Biblical quotes without contextual, situational sensitivity and discernment is dangerous as it destroy faiths and lives. Try applying Bible teachings without qualifications, I can guarantee disasters as I have witness many a well meaning Xtian counsellor bring condemnation instead of life to those that were vulnerable. Like they say, the road to hell is paved with good (inappropriate) intentions .

    • Journeyman,

      My very wise pastor once said this and I quote ‘the only (person) that you have to impress in this world is the very one that is deeply in love with you and gave Himself up for you’.

      I think you would have impressed Him greatly with your writing here. I know I’m impressed..

      lyn

  • Having lunch with a girlfriend this week, I heard a devastating news. A beloved Christian brother who was a leader fell. His wife, who is a very good friend of ours, is going through a very tough time dealing with her husband’s infidelities and seemingly unrepentant stance to the whole thing.

    Please know that my writings here are supported by personal experiences and revelation at one time or another.

    1. Christians today need to wake up and realize the 50/50 approach to Christianity is not enough. In fact, the 50% self-effort, 50% Holy Spirit is a dangerous stance to take. It may have been part of the journey but there must be progress. This progress would have reached it’s optimum at ‘Walking in the Spirit’ in Romans 7 and 8.

    The 50%/ 50 % approach would leave 50% as the devil’s playground. He would work extra hard to stir your 50% flesh that The Holy Spirit has no control over. This is where many Christians stumble.

    The Holy Spirit has no dominion over your sinful nature.
    Get out quickly.

    2. Being under Grace means realizing that your sins are totally forgiven and curses being borne by Lord Jesus on the Cross.

    Some Christians may also have become confused at this stage. I have seen many stumble at this stage thinking that this would enable them to live as they pleased.

    Thinking that the Grace message covers all, they carry on with their old lifestyle of sinning and doing exactly as they pleased or only to repent after every sin. This is not the way the Lord would have you live your lives either. He is a good God but He is also a Holy God. The Holy Spirit lives in us so there must a new nature.

    3. In my ministry, having ushered my people under the umbrella of Grace, I would quickly and strongly usher them into the realm of walking in the Spirit. This is the highest form of the Christian state.

    This is where words such as ‘reigning in life’, ‘old self was crucified’, ‘sin shall not be my master’, ‘law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death’, ‘sin shall not have dominion over me’, ‘renewing of my mind’ ‘righteousness, peace and joy through the Holy Spirit’ ‘washed and sanctified’, ‘victory through the Lord Jesus Christ’, ‘WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD is, there is freedom’ ‘old has gone, new has come’, ‘dead to sin, alive to God in Christ Jesus’ etc.etc. becomes ALIVE.

    This is where ‘I consider all things rubbish that I may gain Christ’ comes into fruition. This is where Gucci, Prada, and diamonds become ‘rubbish’. The prosperity message is only an attractive tool to do kingdom’s work. That is why the people under ‘Grace’ in Ananias and Sapphira can put it all at the apostle’s feet (I am a working progress here).

    All the promises of the Bible become very easy to come into fruition at this stage. ‘by Jesus’s stripes I’m healed’ etc.

    This where even the THOUGHT of homosexuality or having sexual relations outside the marriage BECOMES a disgust. The flesh nature dies and the Holy Spirit nature takes over.

    The Holy Spirit led life would align all thoughts and acts with God. And where the desires has not actually died (especially at the early stage of the journey) the fruit of the Spirit i.e. self-control becomes so strong it becomes easier and easier to control the sinful urge.

    People under Grace not being strongly ushered under this realm would still feel the disgust at their sinful ways. Hence the condemnation still comes into play no matter how they psyche themselves up with the word of God.

    However, having said all that, this is a JOURNEY, all in God’s timing. Nobody ever changes overnight without trial and error. Knowing that we are righteous by the blood of Jesus is vital every step of the way.

    The journey, however, does not end at Grace. It ends at ‘Life through The Spirit’ Romans 8.

    This is where things like ‘conformed to the likeness of His Son’ ‘Glory to glory’ ‘more than conquerors’ becomes real.

    A LIFESTYLE of being in a constant prayer state, meditation of God’s word, listening to and singing worship songs, psalms and hymns, constant communicating and consulting with the Holy Spirit would ensure this walk becomes easier to achieve.

    Praying that God show you way is the best way forward and would be vital at this point.

  • Grace does not free us from the consequences of sin. Fear is legitimate. John Bevere in his book Drawing Near, mentioned he visited a well known pastor in US jailed for fraud. He asked the fallen minister “ When did u fall out of love with Jesus ? The fallen minister replied immediately “ I didn’t ! Puzzled John Bevere asked – what about the fraud and adultery ? He said—John, I love God all the way through it, but I didn’t fear Him. He told John there are millions of american christians who call jesus saviour and love him but they don’t fear Him as their supreme Lord. 2 Cor 7:1
    Yes we all need to prayer and stay close to the Lord always lest we fall. Its hard work but that’s what it takes to be disciple.

  • Hi WP,

    The mindset of Grace is a pre-condition to Walking in the Spirit.

    Romans 8:15
    For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”

    1 John 4:18
    There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

    2 Timothy 1:7
    For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline.

    If we fear God because of punishment, we still do not have the ‘right’ Spirit.

    However, there is a ‘right’ fear of the Lord that the Holy Spirit will give you if you ask Him.

    Isaiah 11:2
    The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him–the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD-He will delight in obeying the LORD.

    I always pray this over myself and my children.

    This is more a Spirit of worship. Obedience to the Lord becomes a delight not a chore.

    Psalm 130:4
    If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand?
    But with you there is forgiveness; therefore you are feared.

    Realizing that we are forgiven, we are loved, we are under Grace put the ‘right’ Spirit of fear within us. We now obey out of thankfulness, gratefulness, love, respect (not fear of punishment).

    This would produce a consistent and highest form of obedience.

  • Thanks for sharing. The fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom. Fearing God is not being scared of God. Fear of consequences of sin is good if it helps ( not the sole factor) to deter one from sinning. We need the help of the HS as well. I can identify fully with what is written by John Bevere and what the fallen pastor shared. We need the grace for sanctification after redemption and the fear of the Lord is impt.Yes to develop the lifestyle you talk about requires alot of work until it becomes a lifestyle with the help of the HS. It is not easy to be a disciple but thats what we are called to be and its a process of sanctification. Its about Lordship ultimately . Jesus cant be our saviour and not Lord.

  • Hi Balanced, I mean… WIP Disciple…, 🙂

    No, it’s not work when you’re in love. It’s an invitation for the Holy Spirit to rule our insides. Being in tune with the Holy Spirit.

    Invitation is not work. We pray all the time. Just ask God to rule over us and all our decisions. What’s so hard about that? The rest, reading the Bible, meditation, singing, communicating with the Lord are just things you can do to keep yourself in tune with the Spirit. To me it’s not work. I enjoy being with my Lord.

    Example, if I enjoy being with my husband and I do things to get closer to him, to me it’s not work. It’s my joy.

    Once the Holy Spirit rules over you and all that you do, you’ll have so much peace and victory over sin, there’s no need to fear the consequence of sin.

    Anyways, try it before you knock it….

    Grace–>Holy Spirit–>victory in Christ, Lord, Savior, King, God everything.

    Thanks for reading!

    Anyways, to all, there is nothing wrong with putting our ideas out there intelligently. Quoting from writers are good but they are just people like you and me. They are not always right. Quoting the Bible is primal.

    No need to resort to name calling and judgement calls. We respect each other. The reason I write all these is to help people after much suffering I have gone through stage by stage.

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